A
adhay
Guest
Iran
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M
MOIDALIZE
Guest
At this point, the "al-Queda" and "We have to kill them over there" arguments are complete BS. That much is clear.
And we're not going to go all in on a proper COIN strategy (which isn't even really a strategy, but don't get me started). There's absolutely no will to stay there long-term. What good would it do?
So what are we going to do? Will it be another surge? That only "succeeded" in Iraq because, compared to Afghanistan, Iraq is stable and functional. But that doesn't mean that the surge will have worked in Iraq at the end of the day. That was all marketing for the people back home. Make it look like we're doing something important, hope for some level of stability for a little while, declare victory and leave. That shit isn't going to work in Afghanistan. We can't even control the road between Kabul and Kandahar.
It seems to me that all we're doing is maintaining strategic flexibility in the Middle East, at exorbitant cost, by having our forces in position to move against Iran or Pakistan. Why?
And we're not going to go all in on a proper COIN strategy (which isn't even really a strategy, but don't get me started). There's absolutely no will to stay there long-term. What good would it do?
So what are we going to do? Will it be another surge? That only "succeeded" in Iraq because, compared to Afghanistan, Iraq is stable and functional. But that doesn't mean that the surge will have worked in Iraq at the end of the day. That was all marketing for the people back home. Make it look like we're doing something important, hope for some level of stability for a little while, declare victory and leave. That shit isn't going to work in Afghanistan. We can't even control the road between Kabul and Kandahar.
It seems to me that all we're doing is maintaining strategic flexibility in the Middle East, at exorbitant cost, by having our forces in position to move against Iran or Pakistan. Why?
F
FoieGrasIsEvil
Guest
Israel?
Care to elaborate?
At this point, the "al-Queda" and "We have to kill them over there" arguments are complete BS. That much is clear.
And we're not going to go all in on a proper COIN strategy (which isn't even really a strategy, but don't get me started). There's absolutely no will to stay there long-term. What good would it do?
So what are we going to do? Will it be another surge? That only "succeeded" in Iraq because, compared to Afghanistan, Iraq is stable and functional. But that doesn't mean that the surge will have worked in Iraq at the end of the day. That was all marketing for the people back home. Make it look like we're doing something important, hope for some level of stability for a little while, declare victory and leave. That shit isn't going to work in Afghanistan. We can't even control the road between Kabul and Kandahar.
It seems to me that all we're doing is maintaining strategic flexibility in the Middle East, at exorbitant cost, by having our forces in position to move against Iran or Pakistan. Why?
I still believe in the mission in Afghanistan. "Where Empires Go To Die" bedamned. We have gained a foothold against extremists in that region and we should continue to fight them, no matter the cost. Not having another 9/11 (or Madrid, or London) is worth it (to me). If we conduct ourselves properly and induce the general populace into the idea that they can think and vote for themselves, then it can work.
I realize I'm being incredibly naive here.
I am not sure what you refer to, but if you want places we interfered with that did not institute a better form of government that would help the people heres a small list
Haiti
Iraq
Afghanistan
Kuwait
Panama
Philippines
Libya
Nicaragua
Chili
Guatemala
Dominican Republic
Indonesia
Cuba
Vietnam
Puerto Rico
El Salvador
Honduras
Why is the Honduras like Afghanistan? They have 'brown' people? You really don't have a clue about culture, do you?
G
gonzomax
Guest
Why is the Honduras like Afghanistan? They have 'brown' people? You really don't have a clue about culture, do you?
Not about culture. It is about interfering in a government to make it safe for the international business thieves. We don't fight for culture. We fight for resources . We stomp on culture. We overthrow governments for AT&T. We do it for the oil cartels. The government of Iran was elected by the people in the 1950s. The president talked about nationalization of the oil because the oil corps were looting them. We helped overthrow them and put in a repressive dictator and installed the Peacock Throne. They stomped the people into the ground, looted the treasury, and got tons of money and military help from us. That went on until the hostage crisis when the people revolted tossing our dictator out. It is not new. It is what we do and have done many times.
M
MOIDALIZE
Guest
I still believe in the mission in Afghanistan. "Where Empires Go To Die" bedamned. We have gained a foothold against extremists in that region and we should continue to fight them, no matter the cost. Not having another 9/11 (or Madrid, or London) is worth it (to me). If we conduct ourselves properly and induce the general populace into the idea that they can think and vote for themselves, then it can work.
I realize I'm being incredibly naive here.
How does spending a shitload of money there (under)manning remote outposts prevent another 9/11? Even the military admits that there's like 400 al-Queda left, and they've likely moved to Pakistan.
It doesn't matter what badasses we are, we're not suited for this type of mission.
In other words, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
I'll explain again (I don't know why). No matter who runs Afghanistan there will be corruption. Whether that is as 'benign' as you should hire my nephew to taking bribes before the police will help you resolve a crime. It is the nature of the beast in that culture where tribalism is the norm.
Karzi isn't corrupt because we put him in power, he is corrupt because that is the culture he lives in.
I'll explain again (I don't know why). No matter who runs Afghanistan there will be corruption. Whether that is as 'benign' as you should hire my nephew to taking bribes before the police will help you resolve a crime. It is the nature of the beast in that culture where tribalism is the norm.
Karzi isn't corrupt because we put him in power, he is corrupt because that is the culture he lives in.
H
Hallucinex
Guest
You might know Evo as the popular indigenous president of Bolivia.
...or as the guy who thinks that you can catch the gay from eating chicken
It is about interfering in a government to make it safe for the international business thieves.
I worked in Yemen for 9 years for an oil company. We went into the country when few would and spent money there to produce the oil. We got a healthy cut for doing so. Were we thieves? Without us there would have been no development. It is certain that anything you would have done would not have resulted in any sort of development. The Yemenis didn't have the banking to develop their resources on their own.
Who will invest in Afghanistan without a healthy return on that investment to counter the major risk of putting money there? Again, you? Grow up.
D
Der Trihs
Guest
That would be monstrously evil, turn the entire world against us, and ensure that we have millions more enemies. And it wouldn't encourage anyone to cooperate with us on anything, since we show no reluctance to attack people who try to cooperate too. Besides which, we'd be so hated that cooperating with us would just get you killed by your friends and family; that happens in Iraq, and we haven't even gone on the genocidal nuclear spree you are advocating there.Can't we just selectively nuke Afghanistan and be done with it? Nuclear weapons aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be in the long-term. Hell, we have nuked our own soil and lots of other places as well. Nuking Japan was the best thing that ever happened to them. I don't see why we can't just nuke Afghanistan into the 1st world one bomb at a time. I know I try a lot harder when someone threatens to kill my whole extended family if I don't toe the line. Pull the U.S. troops back and start lobbing one a day until there is significant improvement in behavior. It is basic psychology and it will work. Flowers don't grow well in radioactive fertilizer either.
It wouldn't help us in the slightest. nor would we deserve to be helped, or to be anything other than utterly destroyed if we acted as you suggest.
A
adhay
Guest
I worked in Yemen for 9 years for an oil company. We went into the country when few would and spent money there to produce the oil. We got a healthy cut for doing so. Were we thieves?....
Nice job, Uzi. You made good money tho, didn't you?Yemen is one of the poorest nations in the world, with high unemployment, a low literacy rate, a corrupt government,....
K
Kobal2
Guest
Keep in mind that this isn't Nazi Germany we are fighting where you kill one guy and the whole thing topples.
Goddammit, Nazi Germany wasn't like that either !
Hitler's death did jack shit, he wasn't a necromancer and his army didn't poof into dust the second he put a bullet in his brain. Germany toppled because it had been ground to fine paste on two fronts, for years on end. It toppled because it had nothing left to go on, not even young men to send to their deaths. Had Hitler died during Nazi Germany's heydays, someone else would have taken over the nuthouse and business would have continued as usual. Probably Himmler.
Sorry for the side rant. It's just one of those notions that annoy me for no reason.
Nice job, Uzi. You made good money tho, didn't you?
Certainly, would you go there for less than you'd make wherever you are from? If you say yes, then you have every opportunity to get on a plane and go there now to help.
I at least made sure the people who worked for me were trained and mentored well. They also made about 40 times the national average in wages. What would that be in the country you work in?
And it also proves my point. The oil companies aren't the ones making the country corrupt and poor. They'd be even more so without the investment. Because for every penny the oil companies make, the government makes 2. What they spend it on isn't something we have control of.
G
gonzomax
Guest
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1433139/oil_company_profits.html Yep. Oil companies are making at least 45 billion a year. The governments get two for every one the poor oil companies get? What a dreamland.
But it is not just oil comapnies. The contractors of all kinds are feasting on American tax money. Halibrton, Bechtel, Blackwater,and hundreds of others get multiple million dollar contracts over and over. Their life blood is our tax money and they know how to access it.
But it is not just oil comapnies. The contractors of all kinds are feasting on American tax money. Halibrton, Bechtel, Blackwater,and hundreds of others get multiple million dollar contracts over and over. Their life blood is our tax money and they know how to access it.
The governments get two for every one the poor oil companies get? What a dreamland.
And how much would the governments of these countries get without the oil companies being there to invest? Are you going to lend them the money, and the expertise, and the organization to help them access their resources? You going to take the risk of investing there? Pony up, or shut up.
Yep, the evil oil companies paying taxes and royalties in third, second, and first world countries. Bastards.
G
gonzomax
Guest
And how much would the governments of these countries get without the oil companies being there to invest? Are you going to lend them the money, and the expertise, and the organization to help them access their resources? You going to take the risk of investing there? Pony up, or shut up.
Yep, the evil oil companies paying taxes and royalties in third, second, and first world countries. Bastards.
And polluting them to death. They of course exploit the native workers and run the local governments so they can operate without rules. The oil belongs to the country where it is. Oil companies are not doing the country a favor. They actually prop up governments that will allow them to exploit the land while the leaders take enormous bribes. The politicians work for the oil companies. The people get suppression. They must deserve it.
L
Leaffan
Guest
Who is the consumer of all this evil oil? Oh yeah, we are. Damned capitalism!
Where'd I put my car keys?
Where'd I put my car keys?
P
Paul in Qatar
Guest
Say what you fucking will, have you noticed nobody at all (not even me) is defending the fucking war in Fucking Iraq? Fuck George Bush.
F
FoieGrasIsEvil
Guest
How does spending a shitload of money there (under)manning remote outposts prevent another 9/11? Even the military admits that there's like 400 al-Queda left, and they've likely moved to Pakistan.
It doesn't matter what badasses we are, we're not suited for this type of mission.
That was a big part of the problem in Iraq, too. We weren't suited for this type of mission. But we are becoming better and better at it. Our stupid civilian leaders in the early 2000's should have foreseen the type of conflict both wars would devolve into instead of having some misplaced grandiose notion that we would be greeted as liberators.
And can you cite this "400 Al-Qaeda left" statement? This is like the second or third time I've seen someone use that number on here and I've never heard that claim before.
Look, I agree that we need to get out of Afghanistan, and soon. But not until our military leaders are confident that the country can at least keep its government from collapsing.
T
Tapioca Dextrin
Guest
You can't get a good pizza in Afghanistan. Good pizza is the mark of a truly civilized culture. I mean, do you see any "Ghengis Khan Pizza - by the slice"? Or "Hitler Pies! Eat Fresh Today!"? I thought not.
.
Hitler Pizza.