TMNT Talkback "Turtles Forever" (Spoilers)

Karai said something similar in the 2007 movie about familiar faces from the past returning. And this is actually the 2nd time if I count correctly that Bebop and Rocksteady didn't screw up. And as for the movie references, I thought the one from the 1990 movie, but it was actually from the 1991 or 1992 movie, and of course the 2007 movie. One good thing they did was make no reference to the live series from 1997.
 
People have been asking why Karai, who in the last season was in good enough terms with the turtles to get invited to Casey and April's wedding would enable the Shredder's return to power--particularly when she was also willing to betray him so openly in the end. After watching the movie three times, I can't shake the feeling that she was never actually on his side, and was there mostly to keep the situation under control, and if possible, redeem her father.

My scenario: after realizing that Ch'rell has returned, she saves him, because a) he's still her father, and b) if he wasn't killed, he'd probably end up taking over the place anyway. This way, she at least has a measure of control over the situation.

Knowing that her father's will is indomitable, and that simply imprisoning him would be useless as a tool to redeem him--the "you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar" principle--she instead cooperates in order to get him back to power and places herself in her former position of trusted confidant. Given his past history of working in the shadows, she expects that, at worst, they'll return to the status quo. She is, of course, wrong.

Then, once she realizes that her father not only plans to kill the turtles, but destroy existence itself, she decides that her efforts are for naught--her father is irredeemable. She then makes her move, as she does, with none of the hesitation that previously defined her.

So yeah, that's what I think.
 
I thought that this was an excellent movie. It had a terrific balance of action and humor. It was kind of weird that the 80's Turtles showed up so soon, but it did work. The voices for the 80's Turtles also worked for me, but it did take me some time to get used to Dan Green's voice for 80's Leo. I can understand why people thought that the pokes at the original Turtles was a bit much, especially when they were walking around in broad daylight for pizza. I barely remember watching the first series and I thought that wasn't right. However, I took it that their behavior was exaggerated, but not completely outside from how the 80's series was handled. Based on what I've seen and heard, the series did have a lot of crazy humor and villains.

Some of the best jokes were with 80's Raph breaking the fourth wall and everyone wondered who he was talking to. I also loved the contrast between Utrom Shredder and 80's Shredder. It was so hilarious how easily Utrom Shredder overpowered and improved the 80's technology. It was great that we could see more of Karai in this movie since she didn't appear until the finale of BttS. I wondered how she knew about her father's return, but that might have been a scene that was cut out for time. I also liked how the world of the 80's Turtles did look so much like the 80's themselves, or at least the typical images of that decade.

Seeing the Mirage Turtles was pretty cool. They were even poking fun at the 2K3 Turtles, which shows that they were willing to poke at different series. It was funny how Mirage Shredder was easily taken out, especially since he's such a major villain in both series. I thought about how Shredder wasn't affected by the Prime Universe being destroyed, but I guess that he was ignoring it since he was so consumed with rage. It was a nice twist with comic relief characters being the ones to take the Utrom Shredder out.

I thought that the ending was really nice as they all of the Turtles saw each other as their brothers. The last scene with Peter Laird finishing the comic and hoping that it would sell was a nice ending to a great movie.

Overall, it was much more enjoyable than I thought that it would be. While it might have been nice to see more of Casey and April, but it still was a nice movie. I loved that it was honoring all of the different interpretations and universes of the Ninja Turtles. Not only was it a great twenty-fifth anniversary special, but it was also a great conclusion for the 2k3 series. I'll enjoy seeing the movie again during the next three weeks.
 
The difference I see is that we in the audience know those jabs aren't truly what the 2k3 turtles are about, so such comments can be shrugged off. The 88 turtles had no such luck; they were exclusively designated in this movie to be made fun of, and for supposedly good reason.

Sure, but when did they try any of that against giant monstrosities?

I do agree with you, it's not like any of the turtles were beyond criticism by the others. Mirage Leo's running narration, for example.
 
I loved this special, and can't wait to see it uncut!

The lighthearted OT Turtles worked really well with the 2K3 Turtles, and the jokes regarding the OT universe were priceless! I didn't think they overdid it or were mean-spirited at all. They were just jokingly pointing out the simple facts: The OT Turtle universe is WAY more laid-back and goofy in comparison w/ the NT universe.

People complained about them walking around in broad daylight, but they did that a lot in the OT (they were celebs). April, from what I remember of the old toon, had them plastered on the tv all the time!

People complained that they didn't seem to take anything seriously, but they actually did. Sure, they cracked a lot of jokes while fighting, but they were still fighting really well regardless. I honestly thought they were, on occasion, quicker/more agile than the 2k3 boys while fighting.

They weren't as strong as the NT boys (again, this is partially due to the differences to how things are done in their own universe), and they did seem to lose their edge a little bit as we got closer to the ending (being freaked out enough to the point where they couldn't help but cry)...but can you blame them?

I had come to the same conclusion as this individual shortly after watching the special:

Honestly, I think the OT guys were handling their situation pretty well considering:


  • They were ripped out of their own, familiar world, and dumped into a much tougher and more serious universe.
  • Their lighthearted attitudes were unappreciated by the NT boys, expect Mikey.
  • They're not taken seriously by the NT crew, despite still being good fighters, simply because they were so different in comparison.
  • NT Raph is openly jerky to them.
  • The longer they're in the NT world, the more dangerous things become...way more dangerous than the antics they're used to back home.
  • They slowly realize that they could get killed in this universe, yet bravely agree to stay by the NT crew's side through it all.
  • They were nearly broken down into non-existence (a very painful looking and sounding procedure).
  • They go to the Mirage Universe and meet the original turtles, who are WAY more hardcore (in comparison to) than the NT crew...and have a "we'll hurt you/kill you first, ask questions later" attitude. (which is pretty much the last straw for the OT boys at this point).
As the quote above states, they were WAY out of their element in this special...yet, despite having a mild breakdown near the end, they still stuck it out with the NT boys and kept on fighting. Could you honestly see NT Mikey being in their position and taking it anywhere near as well as they had?

Even though their ideas and tactics seemed odd or downright silly to the NT boys, the OT crew would still go with their own guts and their actions paid off in the end. It was OT Don's device (something that NT Don scoffed at) that allowed them to universe hop between their worlds and track the Shredder down to the Mirage Universe, it was OT Don's logic in regards to mechanics/science (whacking something to get it to work if they needed to, something else NT Don scoffed at earlier on...yet ended up doing himself) that saved their lives from the collapse of the NT universe, and it was the OT's choice of weapons that played a big role in defeating NT Shredder (and the extremely goofy and stupid Bepop and Rocksteady unintentionally finished him off in the end...which was pretty awesome and oddly appropriate)!

If it weren't for the OT Turtles and their goofy villains, the Ninja Turtle Multi-verse would probably have been destroyed.

So, yeah, while the OT turtles, the OT villains, and the OT universe were poked at a lot in the special...they weren't shoved aside as useless characters because of it (well...except OT Shredder, but that fit because he really is a buffoon, but even he kicked it up a notch near the end). They were still very important, and in the end they were the ones to save the day.

OT Shredder was just as he was in the show itself, and I took great pleasure in seeing him get his ass handed to him over and over by the NT Shredder and Karai. I was also pleased to see him actually fight near the end of the special, even saving Karai at some point, but wasn't surprised when he reverted back to his kiddish ways in the end (the giggle ray). Like the OT Turtles, I think he was overwhelmed by the NT universe and just wanted to go back home where things were much simpler and laid-back.

Anyone else get a kick out of his arguments with Krang (I loved it when he got ticked off and pounces on the little slimeball to beat up on him for insulting him one-too-many times)?

I LOVED OT Raph's breaking-the-fourth wall moments (the NT characters reactions were priceless) and was in stitches when Hun grabs him and demands to know who on earth he was talking too.

The scene with OT Splinter and NT Leo and Raph was really nice, I'm looking forward to seeing the cut scene with NT Splinter and both TMNT crews.

There was more I wanted to gush about, but need to get ready for work so I'll get to it later.

I loved this special! In all honesty, it's made me appreciate the OT turtles and their universe a whole lot more than I did before...and I'm even thinking of getting the first couple of seasons of the OT on dvd now (I was really unfair to the old show in the past...I want to give it a second shot now :)).

I can't wait to see this uncut and buy the dvd (please, oh, please let this get released on dvd!).
 
I do agree the crying scene was cringe-worthy, but that was the only part that bothered me. The Turtles stopping to take a pizza break to figure out how they should stop Shredder's plan is something that was done in the old show many times.

It wasn't a truly accurate portrayal as to what they're like, as in the old toon the Turtles are intelligent and competent and did things the 2k3 Turtles never did, but the jokes were funny. I laughed and smiled every time they did it, and I love the old toon.

And you're also overlooking the fact that the old toon Turtles battled the Purple Dragons and Foot Soldiers, and won against most of them. Its not like they were standing there doing nothing as the 2k3 Turtles did all the fighting.



You should watch more eps of the original cartoon. :D Its nothing unlike what a lot of the fight scenes in the old show were like.
 
Well, not much to say other than that I loved TF. A couple of minor rants: (1) the 80s turtles were too goofy, even for the 80s turtles and (2) too much exposition.

#1 actually isn't too big of a deal for me. I like to think of it this way... when things got out of hand in the 80s toon, the TMNT got zany. Getting thrown into an alternate universe you don't even belong in is pretty gosh-darned out of hand. Oh, and I loved the scene with 80s April. Giant bananas? Bowling balls? Etc.? That's just the kind of screwball stuff they used to deal with, and it was even funnier that they just left her to be kidnapped again. Which makes perfect sense, since in that universe no one ever hurts April, they generally just tie her up until the TMNT can come rescue her. Technically she's not a priority.

#2 is completely forgivable since I figure the primary audience for this is going to be kids who weren't alive to watch the 80s TMNT. Still, I have to wonder if with more work, it might have worked better in spots. Probably the most awkward moments were "We were battling Shredder's ultimate weapon, The Technodrome..." which given how difficult it had been for the 80s TMNT to figure out the differences between the universes, they had no reason to explain themselves so thoroughly, and "We rescue April like once a day. You can set your watch by it." was another thing that the 80s TMNT probably shouldn't have felt they needed to explain, based on what they knew about the other universe at the time.

That's really it. If I wanted to nitpick a bunch I certainly could, but to think that they had so little time to work with and so many characters to work with, so much exposition they had to get out of the way and so many ways for things to go wrong, and really the bulk of it went so, so right. I really can't praise it enough.
 
The uncut versions ending is much more explained
such as with Ultrom disappearing as well. I believe that whole part was cut for more than just time, as he says if destroying them leads to the destruction of everything, then so be it. I guess 4kids wouldn't like that, but I am rationalizing 4kids logic.
 
I guess he's just that evil...

I really enjoyed the movie. And it was truly nostalgic seeing the '80s characters and references (including the whiny Shredder and his lackeys).

My only gripe was the exaggeration of the '80s Turtles wackiness. Even 2k3 Mikey was getting annoyed. I remember the cartoon not being like that.

The Mirage Turtles were awesome. Considering the dark atmosphere of the comics, they were the polar opposite of the '80s cartoon turtles.

Lastly, I liked the showing of all the different variations of the team.
 
It's obviously because TNM is part of the Power Rangers multiverse, not part of the Ninja Turtles multiverse. Five teenagers with attitude and all that.
 
It does seem their that Mirage in general and not just Laird prefer the 2003 Turtles over the 88 turtles, due partly to being more involved in thecreation process/decission making.

As I said i too was disapointed by the treatment of the 88 characters, they were dumbed down alot. Running around in broad day light? The 80's turtles never did that especially when they went for Pizza, they knew they needed disguises that make them look more human yet in this special they did not know better.

While I prefer the 2003 show the Eighties characters were made to be jokes. i do think the writers were trying to be respectful to the Eighties show but they clearly prefer their turtles. I mean I kept expected the Eighties Turtles to actually step up and fight serously near the end but it never happened. Sadly they were played just for laughs, sometimes it worked (Old school Raph's fourth wall breaking) most of the time is didn't.

The best way to look at ths was those were the actual 1988 Turtles and their universe but one very simmilar. But that really does not work.
 
Could the portrayal of the 1987 turtles have been better? Sure--like Shift says, more distinct personalities would have been nice. However, I think what we actually got wasn't done out of malice, but out of consideration for the movie's needs.

Which isn't to say that the portrayal is entirely innacurate: the old toon turtles could go beyond stupid and into retarded at times. My favorite example (partly because the first season is the only one I have regular access to) is the scene in April's appartment in the series' third episode, where Mikey proves unable to prepare instant pizza or read instructions, Raph cannot distinguish between a baseball cap and a bottle cap, in the context of bubble bath preparation, and Leo starts throwing lipstick at April's paintings for no better reason than "target practice".

I also don't see what the fuss is about their very public outing is, since the turtles could be just as bad in their toon. In the first season alone, we have stuff like Leonardo assaulting a man with his sword for no reason at all, the Ninja Pizza visit (and no, wearing trenchcoats and fedoras doesn't make it any less stupid), and impromptu dancing with the streets--not to mention, the very stealthy blimp with the word "Turtles" on it. The only reason it works in their show is because theirs is a world where such things happen, which is why, the way I see it, is why they're so carefree in the beginning. Why is it so jarring? Because it's not their world. Plus, theres the not-unimportant fact that at this point in their timeline--post season 1--their existence has already been revealed, with April as their de-facto press agent.

There's ground for complaint, yes. However, I don't think there's any ground to claim that the creators were being disrespectful.
 
In all fairness though, the Mirage Turtles take jabs at both Toon Turtles.

I came in a bit late as I woke up later, but I thought this was great. This is how you make a finale as well as a great comic book movie.
 
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