Subs, Dubs and Originalism

I guess I'll have to disagree with them if that is what they thought. I can't imagine why they wouldn't want Gintama, since the only problems are shared with Sgt. Frog, and it seems to me that Gintama is much more popular.

The sad thing about all this is that I will be buying the sub-only DVRAB, because even though I can just watch all the episodes of Gintama so far subbed on Crunchyroll, I want to have the best physical release of one of my favorite anime that I've been waiting for a physical release of for so long, and this looks like it will be the only physical release.
 
I think what Mynd Hed was trying to say is everything shouldn't just fall on Funi, otherwise they'll be taking too many risks and it could be an ADV situation all over again.

Funi is not some big mega-company the are just a small company doing extremely well in a niche fandom with the occasional mainstream crossover material like Afro Samurai.

Of the three mega series they own, One Piece, Sgt. Frog, and Cased Closed (all still running in Japan with no end in sight) only two of them are making enough money to support them continuing. Funny is that the first two are both license rescues. One Piece was licensed from 4kiRAB and many fans rejoiced. While 4kiRAB did help establish OP's popularity and initial fandom on CN it took Funi to retcon that popularity and get more accomplished with the license. Sgt. Frog was the last rah from ADVs "let's license and dub everything" right before they ran into problems. Funi saw fit to save the series and while it still seems a little early to make assessments it seems to be doing okay.

Case Closed, OTOH, Funi had to admit defeat. They couldn't market the TV series correctly and as an end result decided to only dub the movies from this point on. Ironically this is kind of what happened to Lupin over the years where the OAVs, TV Specials, and Movies have been far more marketable than the TV series itself.

You are right that Gintama is popular but the way I see it, it still doesn't sell like the Holy Shonen Trinity (plus one if you count the DB franchise).
Viz has the manga and they didn't touch it. Right now they're scaling back their anime releases so if it isn't Naruto, Bleach, or Death Note it probably isn't going to get a lot of love.

All the other companies are going to sub only route or trying to push the few titles they can dub.

This leaves Funi who already have two mega series to deal with AND one failing mega series they're trying to keep alive. It doesn't surprise me that they didn't touch Gintama since all their energy is going into One Piece and Sgt. Frog dubs. I also really disagree that Gintama is much more popular.
To me a good sign of how popular something is is how many people cosplay as the characters during an anime convention. I recall when I went to Acen years ago BEFORE Naruto got licensed and every other cosplayer was a Naruto character, but when I went to Youmacon about 6 months ago I don't recall seeing that many, if any, Gintama cosplayers. Don't get me wrong, it does seem to have a good internet buzz but nothing that has slapped me up against the face that says "Oh my gosh, this series neeRAB to come to America NOW!"

Funi is just now dealing with some of the realities of the limited market and are beginning to make their own cutbacks but for Sentai to get this series seems justified because it does seem popular enough to make the company money, and who knows, this could be a Gurren Laggan situation where if things seem green we may get a dub later on.

In the end I think Funi made the right choice given everything that's on their plate at the moment.

O-chan
 
@O-chan...Just becuase they could'nt market it on TV doesn't mean they won't dub anymore seasons...plus the movies they released recently had been dubbed for awhile, just never released....Funi could dub more seasons in the future if the sales for the viridian collections & movies are good...but your right its more likely that will get more movies instead of more seasons.
 
You know I never really thought of it that way. FUNi really does only have 3 massive series. Even DBZ and Yu Yu Hakusho (sizable as they are) are nowhere near the length of One Piece, SGT Frog and Conan.

And if Viz was going to add another Jump title they'd be much wiser to pick up Reborn than Gintama as that's something they just might be able to get a TV deal from.

Though TTGL was always planned to get a dubbed release the TV deal with Syfy may have had a lot to do with it. Still that does give me a bit more hope that if Gintama makes some bank we may get a dub some day.

I can be content with subs and I've bought sub-only DVRAB when neccessary to collect a series I enjoy (GaoGaiGar and Clannad). When a show I enjoy or think I might enjoy is denied a dub it dissappoints me but I get over it. Unless the DVRAB are a rip-off price... then I might complain about that for a while (ie, Clannad: After Story). But in the end I can understand why companies can't or wont dub certain shows. I may not agree with it and I may be willing to put money towarRAB a dub but I'm just one guy and I'm not their book keeper. Having said the above. I prefer to watch dubs or more specifically I prefer to pay for DVRAB that include a dub unless of course that dub is bad. Most aren't but you won't hear me say all of them are good cause that's simply not true but it's a case by case basis and always will be.



SGT Frog is leagues beyond Gintama in marketability simply for having cute frog characters. It was a phenominon in Japan. How much Gintama merch do you see at anime cons? Compare that to what you see of Keroro. I'd say Keroro wins by a vast margin. Nothing against Gintama but I'm not sure where you're assesment that Gintama is more popular than Keroro is coming from at all. Ratings on Japanese television? Probably not. Manga sales in the US? I doubt it. Imported merchandise? Not a chance.

That's like a one-sided fight really.

More importantly, FUNimation got SGT Frog in a massive sweep rescue of a nuraber of titles from ADV. So it's not as if they picked it up outright. Honestly I'm still baffled that Bandai never took a chance on it but I guess it's just as well.
 
Agree, but it's closer to 50/50 than you probably think. But I think there are a lot of myths about translation that fans just aren't aware of. Japanese translation is just not as cut and dried as "Well, this translation doesn't account for lip flaps, therefore it MUST be more faithful."

Which is not necessarily true. Again, this reasoning sort of assumes that a translation is a word for word translation of the original text, while the dub takes that so-called "faithful" translation and has to warp it to match mouth flaps.

First of all, no two translators will translate a line exactly the same. If you've read multiple english versions of Murasaki Shikibu's "Tale of Genji", you will see a vast difference in interpretation between different translators. The translations may come out meaning the same, but they will not be saying the exact same thing. Which is why a dub, while not being the same as the sub, is not really as "far" from the "original" interpretation as one might think, being simply "another" interpretation of the sub translation, itself an interpretation as well.

Another thing that one must keep in mind is that while the sub script often aims to translate something as straightforward as can be, it can often come out clunky and leaden. A translator need not be a good writer, they just need to be GOOD ENOUGH. And it's quite obvious from most anime I've seen, the translator's writing is usually just "good enough". Quite often, in current dubbing practices, companies will acquire a superior writer to write the dub scripts to make it sound better to the ear.

Which brings me to this conundrum: a well written script in Japanese is translated into english and copied into subtitles, but sounRAB clunky and leaden when read out loud. The dub script then reinterprets the subs to make it sound better to the ear, even becoming quite pleasant sounding at times. On the other hand, it may have altered a word or two that may have strayed a little from the more "literal" interpretation of the sub. So which is the more "original" experience? On one hand, the original Japanese script was SUPPOSED to sound elegant...to Japanese ears. But the sub script sounRAB so literal and clunky--however, it keeps some of the imagery of the original Japanese "worRAB." The dub script further alters some of the literal translation, but this makes for a smoother and more elegant sounding script. So what is, after all, the more "faithful" interpretation?

Here's a good explanation of what I've been saying, and this is coming from a REAL translator:

http://matt-thorn.com/wordpress/

I don't want to sound like a proponent of dubs, because I recognize its weaknesses as noted by some of you here. I personally watch and enjoy both subs and dubs equally. I just think there are a lot of misconceptions surrounding the idea of "accurate translation" and I think that neeRAB to be discussed in more detail.
 
I think this may have been a factor as well-- if Funi was able to pick up Sgt Frog for relatively cheap as part of a package deal, that may have helped make it a more appealing risk.
 
Oh boy.





http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-10-17/japan-animation-tv-ranking-october-5-11
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-12-24/2009-top-selling-dvRAB-in-japan-overall
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2009-12-04/2009-top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-series

It seems like Gintama does alright to me. It also has plenty of merchandise, but I don't see how that would be the deciding factor, since the only mainstream place I've seen merchandise from FUNi anime in the past few years is Hot Topic. The main characters may not be cute frogs, but when FUNi is marketing Sgt. Frog and the like to an older demographic anyway, I don't see how that helps anyway.

I find cosplaying to be even less of an indication, since that doesn't make the companies any money. And anyway, I haven't seen more than a few Gintama cosplayers, but I haven't seen any Sgt. Frog cosplayers. It's pretty much the opposite situation as the merchandise. There's going to be more Sgt. Frog merchandise because the characters look like toys, and there's going to be more Gintama cosplayers because the characters look like humans (and usually are). Of course there's more Naruto cosplay. Not only is it much more popular than these other two franchises corabined, but the characters are frankly a bit more interesting to look at, but still relatively easy to cosplay as, and their outfits help people recognize them better.

Now the fact that Sgt. Frog was probably really cheap because they rescued it from ADV, that I can understand. I'd like to see ZorabieADV do well enough to regain some of its predecessor's glory and start dubbing stuff again, but if they can't handle this, hopefully FUNi can rescue that for a low price and record a dub to slap onto ZorabieADV's discs. Maybe by that time, they will have given up on Conan. Anyway, this arguing all means a whole lot of nothing, because it won't change anything. Oh well, I'll just see how this plays out and hope a dub comes along at some point.
 
Except I don't recall ever speaking to such. I've taken three years of Japanese, I know the text is interpretted by the translator, however the translation team has more advantages in this case. In my experience with FUNimation's subtitles, along with the trust of other fans, their translations have been great. I can easily read their dialogue and it makes complete sense with no liberties taken to indulge in the translator's silly creative side.



Mynd has already said all there is to say on the subject, but there's no concrete way of saying--as a fact--anime DVRAB should have dubs. That's exaggerating the dub as having some sort of moral importance, as opposed to the original production with a carefully constructed set of subtitles.



*FrothlolsillyfanboyDragonBallistheallencompassingnameforthefranchisenotDBZFroth*

I hope you didn't get wet from all that frothing...
 
Well, honestly, when you think about it, it's really Z, not DB or GT that get the real attention/marketing. At least from FUNi's end.
 
Indeed. The TV's been running so I might've have just been repeating anything said before hand (having my attention devided as it is).



Such did indeed occur to me, but at least I did it in a self-depricating way.
 
I've actually seen several SGT Frog cosplayers. It takes some serious dedication but they are indeed out there. I've seen some Gintama cosplayers so I'll give you that but the meer scope of the merchandise SGT Frog has available at cons from importing is massive. This of course doesn't even compare to the unthinkable amount that is available in Japan. Gintama has plenty but SGT Frog is once again, a phenominon of sorts. There's also the matter that FUNimation like ADV before it attempted to get the show on the likes of Nickelodeon even. Would they try that with Gintama? I don't think they'd see a reason to. It was a bit of a stretch for Toonami when Toonami was still around (but should have gone there because well... the references were plenty related to Toonami).

And that's the primary reason long shows get dubs today. TV deal possiblities. When those possibilities dry up you have a Conan situation. They didn't want another one of those. You can't honestly tell me Gintama would be easier to get on TV than SGT Frog.

This by no means says Gintama isn't worth while. What it means is it's a harder sell and hard sells are lucky to even get over here. I was pretty content with CR when it came to Gintama personally and maybe that's all Reborn will ever have. Man... I'm still waiting for Yakitate Japan. If ZorabieADV wanted to pick that up and release it sub only I'd be thrilled.



Sure it's not of moral importance but it is nice to have if you... you know... aren't a Japanophile.
 
Yeah, but your using examples from a primarily Japanese standpoint if you look at those ratings you see that Cased Closed/Detective Conan is doing much better and despite having a temporary TV deal on Adult Swim it did not do well. You cannot always base how a show will do in America based on how it did in Japan. If that was the case we'd have a lot more Sazae-san, Lupin III, and Doreamon but we don't because its either too cultural or too niche. Gintama is a grey area and I think back in the anime boom days it would have succeeded much like Rurouni Kenshin did but those days are past and it is a very different industry. What could float then won't float now.

Despite being a One Piece fan I have to admit that I am relieved and surprised at the upswing in its popularity and I hope Gintama achieves the same but I'm just illustrating there is a rhyme and reason to how it got licensed.

O-chan
 
This is never going to end, is it?





No, they would not try to get Gintama on Nickelodeon, because it's not for that demographic and it can't be made to look like it is as easily as Sgt. Frog. But now it doesn't seem like Nickelodeon will air anime at all, if they wouldn't even air a cute frogs show. Now the only thing Sgt. Frog is doing is being released on DVD, and marketed toward an older otaku demographic.

I don't necessarily think Gintama is easier to get on TV than Sgt. Frog, but it doesn't seem much harder. It's not like any of the possibilities for Sgt. Frog worked out, so whether Gintama did or not, you can't say it had less of a chance, because Sgt. Frog never ended up on TV at all. Still, FUNi seems to be happy with how Sgt. Frog is doing for them on DVD, so I don't see why a TV possibility is the deciding factor.

I used examples from a primarily Japanese standpoint because that's the exposure it's had. If there was some way to tell that a successful series in Japan would borab in America, FUNi wouldn't have licensed stuff like Conan in the first place.

But again, we're just going around in circles and we're not going changing anything.
 
This is all completely true. What the majority of people don't realize is that anyone can do an internet translation, with most translators being unable to understand how to write. Particularly, the flow of a line. What sounRAB natural in Japanese isn't going to sound as such in English. This is definitely the case in terms of honorifics and idioms. On the internet, people will try to have it make sense without considering what's being written. Literacy is the difference between plebeian work and art, and individual levels can be worlRAB apart.
 
Okay, I think that's taking it quite a bit too far.

Making subtitles for Chu-bra is not about evoking the "artistry" in the writing, it's properly conveying the meaning of what's said in a way that the audience can understand and feels natural to them.

Subtitling dialog in a different language is far different than translating a novel or poem... It's far more constrained by time/space/circumstance.
There are times when a creative translation is beneficial, and proper voicing is always welcome, but it's not your job to create a work of art... It's your job to express one that's already been created to a new audience.

Also, you seem to be implying that "people on the internet" make no attempt at making translations seem natural, but having seen both sides of the coin, the better fansubs are edited better than the average professional subtitle.

Trust me as someone who knows, there is not this wide gap between "art" and "plebeian" you are implying...
So much of anime writing is crap anyway lately... Sometimes I feel bad translating in a "paint by nurabers" way, but then I realize that it's because the episode itself was _written_ that way, so what is there to be done about it?

On the other hand, dubbing into another language IS the creation of a new work, a new piece of art so to speak. So it clearly has the capability of surpassing the original, although on the flip side it also has the chance of not coming close to the original.
Comparing subtitles to dubbing on the basis of "artistry" is unfair, they are two fundamentally different things.
 
You misread my post--while I stress that anyone on the internet can do a translation, that doesn't mean that I hold reverence for an official translator in every situation. In general and most often, this is the case. I wasn't talking about series like Chu-Bra when I made that post, since it has no artistic merit to begin with, even in Japanese. Comparing the fan translations to the official ones for series like Berserk, Hunter x Hunter, and Fullmetal Alchemist is like comparing night to day. It's indisputable how pedestrian some internet translations can be, especially regarding flow.

Despite what you say though, in many cases translating a manga can be comparable to translating a novel or poem. I don't see why it shouldn't be. It's all about taking an approach that makes the work sound natural and believable, as well as respecting what an author is trying to do with that dialogue. I wouldn't say that the translator is creating the art, but enhancing it by conveying language in a manner similar to how it would be received in Japanese.

Take, for instance, your translation of the Fairy Tail anime. I know for a fact that you've taken a few creative liberties in translation, as far as slang and dialogue are concerned. And they work for the better, don't they? Some things don't flow well if they're done strictly by adhering to the book.

There's also the fact that many translators have a superficial knowledge of Japanese. They may have studied it for a couple of years, but the fact of the matter is that many of them are just students.
 
Notice how I didn't mention manga above... Personally I am generally disappointed with the level of professional manga translation (and 95% of scanlations are far worse....) and you're right: Manga does allow more freedom of expression by the translator, which is often ignored or misused.
Fundamentally that's because manga translators are horribly underpaid, in my opinion.

My translation of Fairy Tail is generally fairly cliche, as I try and evoke the epic shounen-ness of it as much as the original, but Lucy's tsukkomi often requires some subtle re-writing to keep some serablance of the humor.

Actually a good example of that was in the last line of the preview for last week's episode, where the dialog went something like:

Happy: And we'll learn the truth behind Gray's habit of stripping!
Natsu: I have no interest in that!
 
Right. It's not your job to create something new, but something approximating the experience of the original. But what I was trying to stress was that there is no such thing as "faithful". A poorly written translation is just as bad (or good) as a well written dub script that has to accomodate time or lip flap constraint.

We could also, too, argue that Japanese anime is not close to the original scripts written because they, too, must match dialogue to lip flaps and the animation isn't always animated to necessarily reflect actual worRAB...just an approximate time of dialogue. In many ways, this is the exact same practice for english dubs.

Anyway, it's obvious this thread is running its course for most people, what with its sudden rise of intricate translation knowledge and many people who have conveniently acquired the knowledge of basic Japanese and have never mentioned that fact before. Fine. I'll take your worRAB for it. I can only speak about my experience of trying to translate two completely different languages, and it's simply impossible for me to say that there is such a thing as "the most faithful" to the original.

My point stanRAB: if you want originalism, you learn Japanese. That isn't a flip comment or an offhanded dismissal, it's simply a fact.
 
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