Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Little Nemo
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38267520 Apparently our soldiers are not enjoying this endless war.
 
Back to the point about Karzai. If he is corrupt it is not because someone put him into power. Even if the Afghani's elected their leader (although I though they had Karzai) that leader is likely to be just as corrupt as Karzai himself. And likely to be a Taliban nut job, or worse, too.
 
Shagnasty said:
Can't we just selectively nuke Afghanistan and be done with it? Nuclear weapons aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be in the long-term. Hell, we have nuked our own soil and lots of other places as well. Nuking Japan was the best thing that ever happened to them. I don't see why we can't just nuke Afghanistan into the 1st world one bomb at a time. I know I try a lot harder when someone threatens to kill my whole extended family if I don't toe the line. Pull the U.S. troops back and start lobbing one a day until there is significant improvement in behavior. It is basic psychology and it will work. Flowers don't grow well in radioactive fertilizer either.
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That is the worst idea ever.
 
Well thanks, everyone.

I think we agree that, as far as any taxpayer is concerned, we should not be in Afghanistan.

Unfortunately, the tax paying electorate has nothing to say but yes or no to whatever foreign and domestic policies are put in place in their name, no matter where you come from. Get it, world?
 
Uzi said:
adhay said:
Try this. Corruption is thinking you have a right to an SUV and $3 gas while half the world starves. IMHO.
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gonzomax said:
That response was not just stupid but gloriously naive.
We don't deliberately give bribes? Are you joking?
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Companies are run by people and people are good and bad. Kind of like countries. There are some people in any company who shouldn't be in that company and will do things they shouldn't do. I have seen people fired for not following company guidelines on taking gifts when they shouldn't be doing so. So, I am sure that in some companies there are people who are violating some law or policy. Kind of like everywhere else in the world. Some of these people could actually be running those companies. Kind of like the people who run countries. Get both types together and you'll end up with the sort of issues you're intimating.
I also know that in the company I was a part of it was a strict policy to not give bribes. In the history of the company was there ever a person who gave a bribe? Who the hell knows. I know we lost a lot of time and money by not giving bribes when they would have sorted out problems if we had.

Unbelievable. I still haven't heard how you intend to finance third world countries so they can develop their resources without using outside expertise and capabilities. Either of you idiots know how to accomplish this? Thought not. Either of you ever gotten on the plane to do a job for less than what you'd get at home? Yeah, thought not.
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http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0515-02.htm Bribery and supporting corruption is how international business is done. We do not do it for the citizens of the land. We don't care about them.We want their oil, tin and drugs. We have supported dictators for generations. That is who we are.
Have you ever heard of education? You may not believe it, but people from these countries can actually do the jobs. They are not lesser people ,children who need us to run their industries for them. That is insulting to them.
 
Uzi said:
I've had guys in customs ask if I'd bring in booze for them to 'facilitate' me getting through quicker. None of them looked like they were running the country.
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Well, you see, they are just the local party workers. To keep 'em vigilant and loyal , they're allowed to pick the low hanging fruit. Meanwhile, our 'elected' favorite and his buddies kick back on piles of taxpayer cash and arms.
The reason the corruption exists is because of the culture that allows it.
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And of which culture do we speak? The briber or the bribed? When we move in, no matter how unfair and unjust the system in place is, we always reinforce it for profit.

OTOH, if a truly popular regime that threatens future profit happens to be in place, we have no compunction in overthrowing it.

So, who's ultimately responsible, Uzi?

If companies are bribing people it is because it is expected by the locals who run the countries.
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Simply because we leave them no choice.
They allow it, and only they can stop it. But because it runs throughout the culture it is very difficult to curtail.
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Yada.
 
adhay said:
And of which culture do we speak? The briber or the bribed? When we move in, no matter how unfair and unjust the system in place is, we always reinforce it for profit.
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Collectivist cultures. Tribalist cultures. The culture predominant in the ME.

Speak for yourself. I've already told you we've lost money by not bribing people.

OTOH, if a truly popular regime that threatens future profit happens to be in place, we have no compunction in overthrowing it.
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Yes, we overthrew the Taliban. Very popular government that one.

So, who's ultimately responsible, Uzi?
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The one asking for the bribe, of course. Why would anyone give money away when they didn't need to?

Simply because we leave them no choice.
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I've already given an example of locals asking for bribes from locals. You just want to blame someone from the West as you seem to think that we are the only people in the world who cause grief for others. You seem to think that the human race is actually made up of us (the exploiters and evil peoples of the world) and them (the noble savage, who if only left alone would live in a natural paradise at one with nature).
 
Afghanistan was a corrupt country when we moved in. We did not make it better. We made it worse. When money gets bigger it exacerbates corruption. The top thieves get even more power and bigger weapons. They hire bigger armies to protect them and do their bidding.
When we moved in, the drug growers had been stopped and the land was growing food. Now it is back like it was, a huge drug operation. We have done a disservice to the people .
Karzai's brother is reputed to be the king pin of the Afghan drug trade. It will not be stopped. Between drug money and American tax money, the Karzai people are getting extremely rich.
 
gonzomax said:
The point is we should not be there.
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Yes, we shouldn't. We are not willing to change the culture to eliminate the corruption endemic within it and give everyone a chance to benefit from the responsible exploration and development of their natural resources.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/25/afghanistan-war-logs-wikileaks_n_658660.html Wikileaks has released thousands of documents they say show how the war is a failure. We have killed thousands of Afghanis and made many, many enemies while not making any headway. Lets stop this madness.
 
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0725/leaked-documents-claim-pakistans-isi-directing-afghan-insurgency/ Among those documents are ones that say Pakistan ISI is directing the Afghanis we are fighting. This is a stupid clusterfuck and we should get out. Pakistan is collecting American tax money and pretending to be our allies. As usual we are being looted and made fools out of.
Please describe what victory would look like.
 
Uzi said:
We are not willing to change the culture to eliminate the corruption endemic within it and give everyone a chance to benefit from the responsible exploration and development of their natural resources.
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As if we could change it. Or had any interest in making the place fairer; Americans don't even like making things fairer for their fellow Americans.
 
Uzi said:
gonzomax said:
As usual we are being looted and made fools out of.
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Okay, now I'm confused. I thought we were looting them!
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Let's clear things up.

The looted:

1)The American people/taxpayers and their progeny. They pay the cost of the unpopular war and provide the funding for maintaining "elected" govts friendly to corporate investment abroad with arms and bribes.

2) In this case, the vast majority of the Afghan people (but also true of the people of every country we've "helped" into "stability") who have lost their lives and livelihoods and will benefit little from any development of their resources.

The looters:

1) Corporations with their interests in acquiring control of resources and profiting from their development along with the war profiteers.

2) Their friendly (to themselves) representatives (armed and funded by an unwilling electorate) charged with maintaining "security" for corporate interests.

Better now?
 
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