Do you believe that "Under God" should be removed from the Pledge in public schools?

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♥nickjonasroxmyworld♥

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VoR, all you say there is just more reason for people to try. Its really not hard, of all the modern western states, the US is by far the most religious and is seen in a bad light by the rest of the world because of this

There is nothing wrong with having God in the pledge, as long as its not slightly dubious as to whether despite what you claim about freedom and all, you really mean it
 
Statistics

The latest Harris Poll came up with 79% 'believing in God', 66% 'absolutely believing in God' (USA). These numbers are a tad lower than Pew's site, generally acknowledged as a premier research site, but Pew's is based on annual statistics.

36% attend a worship service once monthly
26% attend a worship service once weekly

A look at any breakdown on this type of information reveals what one would expect, concentrations of believers and worshipers are prominent in the Lower Midwest and South. Numbers of active believers and worshipers are heavily weighed in middle-aged and retired groups, higher education being an obvious factor in lessening dependence on mythology in younger (under 30) age groups.

The US being a 'new' country and somewhat geographically isolated, dependence on Christianity as a belief system has slowly declined on a steady basis, which is predicted to continue and accelerate as higher education becomes even more widespread, much as what has transpired in developed European countries. Most studies indicate that Christianity will no longer be a dominant factor in US life styles by 2030 as younger, better educated generations replace older, less educated, tradition minded citizens.

Things will, as usual, change.
 
I agree, but....

One of the weaknesses of a constitutional republic is the inevitable reliance on central government in times of prosperity and war. Central government responRAB accordingly, but never relinquishes control gained during those perioRAB and exercises a natural desire to expand that control. A daily pledge by children in formative and post-formative years honoring and pledging allegiance to central government becomes a powerful governing tool, enabling often misused patriotism to be used as a means to stifle dissent. Add a belief system of mythological worship to that pledge, as was done in the 1950s to aid in cold war propaganda against a 'godless' communism, and all of a sudden any individual not reciting the pledge of allegiance can be labeled unpatriotic and godless.

The federal government will fight to retain that tool. To remove the god pledge would weaken that government in the eyes of a questionable majority of citizens who use mythical belief system morality as their standard of right and wrong. When a government has a large flock of sheep easily manipulated by their government ingrained sense of patriotism and morality, they're going to do everything in their power to retain that status quo.
 
Voice of Reason: I think you're confusing secularism with atheism. Secularism is about creating a space which accomodates different religions, rather than about creating a space free of religion.

That means that laws need justification other than moral or religious justifications because it neeRAB to accomodate many different religions.

That's why the US system of gov't and law is based on classical liberal principles that maximize freedom and allow people the freedom to express their religions.

That's what the so-called 'separation of church and state is about'. It's not about removing religion from public discourse, but rather to prevent the state from passing religious laws and interfering with people's choice of religion.

To recap, secularism is about respecting the fact that people have differing religious beliefs, and respecting that fact by not imposing anyone's religious beliefs on anyone else through the machinery of law.

By denying same-sex marriages because of your religious conviction, you're imposing your religious beliefs on people whose religious convictions support same-sex marriage.
 
No, the people who don't believe in Glubus will someday wish that they had.

Here's a news flash: Argument to the future = bullschit.
 
Is that like saying debying the practice of poligamy is imposing religious beliefs? Is denying the practice of live sacrifices imposing a religious belief?

Denial of same-sex marriage is more geared to moral beliefs than religious beliefs...I believe!
 
Could you add "couldn't care less" to the options? "God" does not need to be there - but as long as it's recitation isn't forced, can we please find something more serious to focus on?
 
I've not really seen any reasonable moral debates in the gay rights forum, mostly its just religion, assuming gays, regardless if they marry or not, will have sex with lots of people or that it makes marraige less worth it to those already married. If you can think of a proper one (don't mean to make strawmen, just there hasn't been any moral reasons to deny same sex marriage - to deny government involvedment in all marriage fair enough, but not to pick and chose which types).

Poligamy just really doesn't work within the existing marriage laws - if you applied the existing government benefits to polygamy they just really get confusing as its mainly about inheritance, earnings and leagal representation. Soon as you add more than one person then you have to establish a heirachy legally as well anyway.

Live sacrefices is more to do with animal cruelty than any beleif that it will make God angry, same as shouting fire in a cinema or a verbal contract to have someone killed is a imposing on free speach
 
May I add?

The option of "under batman, under the Kool-aid man, under Joe Depeche, under Allah, under Jesus, under whoever the hell you want, I don't care."
 
The phrase wasn't in the original pledge, so it should be removed simply for that fact.

If it had been in the pledge, the it shouldn't be removed.

But kiRAB shouldn't be forced to pledge allegiance to anything.
 
I don't even think patriotism is involved, at least it is not for me.........I just think it is reaffirming your allegiance and commitment to this country..........
 
What six-year old kid actually understanRAB the ramification of such a commitment? Especially with god attached? It's indoctrination, brainwashing, whatever word one cares to use for enforced learning not related to education.

And I think you have it a little mixed up, this country is the people.
 
Not sure if you are agreeing or not...but hey!

I think those two particular issues are more pragmatic/legalistic issues rather than moral - saying that polygamy treats woman as lesser citizens might be more moral. Pointing out that regardless of your views on its rightness or wrongness, applying marraige to them simple won't just work seems a little more neutral
 
I like to follow a mostly-forgotten rule called the golden rule: "do to others what you would want them to do to you". Don't confuse this with "he hit me first so I hit him". I don't lie because I wouldn't like being lied to, I don't kill because I kind of like this life. There really is no one right thing so I'm just doing what I think the right thing is. I don't know for sure I'm right but at least I make the decision myself whereas others choose to get it out of a book.
 
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