Blog Talkback: Toons of the 2000s: Anime We Hope Never Come to America
- Thread starter Rage of the Jew
- Start date
Roshilarosa
New member
Okay, I just want to be clear, have any of you naysayers actually seen all of these shows? Because while I'll admit that I don't completely think School Days deserves the 5 spot and that KnJ will be unappealing to many but understandable to a few (I think that should be #5 actually), the rest of them are just bad shows. I have seen all of them (Yes, I even saw Kissxsis and Chocotto Sister all the way through. I was curious. Sue me 
) and just aside from the fanservicey/moe stuff, they just aren't good shows. It's like why even license this when there's an actual good show.
Seriously Ultimate Girls is like the stupidest show ever. The main characters power up by losing their clothes periodically and then destroy the bad guys by their embarrassment. I'm all for insane plots but this one is just very bad and I felt like I wasted time.
) and just aside from the fanservicey/moe stuff, they just aren't good shows. It's like why even license this when there's an actual good show. Seriously Ultimate Girls is like the stupidest show ever. The main characters power up by losing their clothes periodically and then destroy the bad guys by their embarrassment. I'm all for insane plots but this one is just very bad and I felt like I wasted time.
paintballbiggie
New member
1. Agreed. we need more GGG
2. True, I guess it can't be helped, but still....
3.Yes, indeed I have, Alsi is that the same girl that sings the black Lagoon theme singing that intro as well?
Also watchiung Tower of Druaga right now, I like how the 1st episode makes fun of a "Certain" type of fanservice, but then again some what ironically episode 2 uses one of the most cliche yet comedic kinds (the ol walked into the bath while you were undressing routine, yea, that stopped being funny about 20 anime ago....but yea, it still works I guess.):sweat:
BOT: I stil say QB has no bussiness stateside, also agree that it is sad alot of older series don't sale as well as they should.:sweat:
2. True, I guess it can't be helped, but still....
3.Yes, indeed I have, Alsi is that the same girl that sings the black Lagoon theme singing that intro as well?
Also watchiung Tower of Druaga right now, I like how the 1st episode makes fun of a "Certain" type of fanservice, but then again some what ironically episode 2 uses one of the most cliche yet comedic kinds (the ol walked into the bath while you were undressing routine, yea, that stopped being funny about 20 anime ago....but yea, it still works I guess.):sweat:
BOT: I stil say QB has no bussiness stateside, also agree that it is sad alot of older series don't sale as well as they should.:sweat:
CSgirl4587
New member
Episode 1 of Druaga was a work of genius. (Especially "that" scene)
Hey, wait a minute, why isn't Nogizaka Haruka Season 2 on this list?
Hey, wait a minute, why isn't Nogizaka Haruka Season 2 on this list?
Well, I have never seen, nor did I ever plan to see any of the titles in this top five list so I can't speak to whether or not it's accurate. But having read the synopsis and as many reviews as I could possibly find, I have no reason to doubt it's validity. As it stands now, the list is perfectly fine with me.
Porn is it's own classification separate from everything else. It has it's own criteria for what constitutes quality that can only be compared to other porn. So unless shows that rely mainly on fanservice over story and characters get their own category making them exempt from scrutiny, they will continue to be judged by the same means as all other anime.......bad story, bad characters, a ton of fanservice to overcompensate equals an overall poor quality anime. If people like shows like that it's fine, just realize they don't compare favorably to anime as a whole.
Porn is it's own classification separate from everything else. It has it's own criteria for what constitutes quality that can only be compared to other porn. So unless shows that rely mainly on fanservice over story and characters get their own category making them exempt from scrutiny, they will continue to be judged by the same means as all other anime.......bad story, bad characters, a ton of fanservice to overcompensate equals an overall poor quality anime. If people like shows like that it's fine, just realize they don't compare favorably to anime as a whole.
Hey Karl, making follow up comments like "Yes. Bring on the hate" and such to that degree don't make you look any better than the people who watch these series.
Since no one else has decided to speak up, and you're accusing all the downvoters of being trolls from 4chan, let me be the first to ask: What exactly did Kodomo no Jikan do to deserve to be called "loli trash"and receive that number 1 spot? I'll admit I've watched the first season and all the follow-up OVAs. Aside from a couple of squick moments, it actually tells a pretty good story.
I can't help but believe you only put that on the list to remind people of the Strike Witches controversy or stir up more fearmongering fresh off the outcome of that Chris Handley case. I know the series could be considered controversial by just about any standard, but you make it look like it attacks all 5 senses and unleashed a plague on the world.
Since no one else has decided to speak up, and you're accusing all the downvoters of being trolls from 4chan, let me be the first to ask: What exactly did Kodomo no Jikan do to deserve to be called "loli trash"and receive that number 1 spot? I'll admit I've watched the first season and all the follow-up OVAs. Aside from a couple of squick moments, it actually tells a pretty good story.
I can't help but believe you only put that on the list to remind people of the Strike Witches controversy or stir up more fearmongering fresh off the outcome of that Chris Handley case. I know the series could be considered controversial by just about any standard, but you make it look like it attacks all 5 senses and unleashed a plague on the world.
I wish they'd just own up and call it what it is... Emasculated Softcore Porn.
It's like listening to a radio edit of Korn. The obvious sensoring of the swear really only serves to mask a more general lack of music. (I use this only as an example, feel free to substitute the specific band with any band you don't like and the same metaphore works)
It's like listening to a radio edit of Korn. The obvious sensoring of the swear really only serves to mask a more general lack of music. (I use this only as an example, feel free to substitute the specific band with any band you don't like and the same metaphore works)
Princess95
New member
They're trying, believe me, they're trying. A few international organizations would very much like to help them along. That's not necessarily a good thing. Government censorship is the wrong solution. Any freedom of expression leaves room for others to express things you don't like. Drawing a legal line on creative material has its risks...
Similar demands have been made on the US government to "do something" about violent video games, and hopefully you're familiar with both sides of that argument.
--Romey
Similar demands have been made on the US government to "do something" about violent video games, and hopefully you're familiar with both sides of that argument.
--Romey
Bored@Life
New member
Actually, I said "I await people telling me I'm a hater, even though I've given favorable reviews to other shows with similar content, but with higher-quality, less-exploitative execution."
That is basically me saying "It'll be interesting to see people prejudge me on a thousand word article, even though I've give big ups to other titles considered by some to be just as taboo."
After all, I've also stated I think the PROTECT Act is an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment, and that in general the principle of free speech means that under no circumstances should victimless thought crime be the basis of prosecution.
Actually, I'm reading the thread on /a/ right now, and there are people actively bragging about their downvoting, some even making the usual rumblings of using Tor and other proxy methods to load it the vote by voting multiple times. But go on...
And thank you for asking the question rather than calling me a gay totalitarian pedophile. I like that Toon Zoon has real discourse on these issues.
Anyway, the lack of tact (squick moments) starts Kodomo no Jikan off with a huge deficit. If you want to sell the emotion and the story, you don't do so by having a number of censored moments every episode (check the uncut DVD versions - there is a lot of loli panties and skin,) and leading with that element is a quick way too lose more people than you've drawn in (and this is the same problem with Chokotto and Kiss X Sis.) Part of the balance other fetish-topical series strike is that fetish always takes a back seat to the story, especially when you're trying underscore a piece of back story or drama. Often times these that rather than opening or closing on service, you're opening with drama - it's part of why Chokotto Sister is a passable manga - the fanservice is a panel or two while the story is ten panels or more, and the anime screws that up by reversing the focus. In Kodomo no Jikan, you're already starting with a manga where service takes the lead, and the anime follows that on path verbatim.
Conceptually, could someone take something similar to Kodomo no Jikan, keep it almost as fanservice-heavy, and sell it outside of a lolicon fandom? Yes, and I say that because shows like Koi Kaze, which are just wrapped up in a taboo fetish make it work. However, it requires a much different sense of direction, and it'd probably be unrecognizable relative to the manga. That wouldn't be the first time that selling the premise happens more so in the anime than manga either; Mahoromatic, which I also mention in the article, is a prime example of this. Gainax tampered with scene arrangement and pacing a bit, so while the basic story is intact, you buy into the characters a lot easier and faster, so much so that when you get to the hard fanservice that comes at the start of season 2, you're not that phased by it, even though it's not that dissimilar to what you'd get in Kiss X Sis or Kodomo no Jikan.
However, sometimes it's those minor tweaks that are everything, or at the very least, possible commercial viability vs. likely flop.
Truthfully, I was somewhat uninvolved with the list making other than pitching about 10 possible titles (the final top 5 titles were not selected by me,) and I did some write ups to make sure we actually got this done on time (mainly because I'm the only staffer whose watched a significant amount of the shows, let alone read the manga for comparison. Also, we were already late.) I don't particularly disagree with it with either, though in retrospect, sticking on Kanokon and Akican might have been better than the original picks for 4th and 5th place respectively. The rest would stay put.
Now, the top list 5 we want list? That I was very involved in, and I'll have done write ups on a good number of the picks there as well. There you can really savage me if you disagree because I ended up getting exactly the list I pitched even after we had staffers vote on it in the interest of being fair.
Anyway, as far as Kodomo no Jikan being number one, it's certainly the one that has least business with a commercial release in the state. If only on the basis it'd probably cost more to buy and localize than you'd ever make on it, it's out. The fact that lack of commercial accessibility stems from being hands down the most unapologetically lolicon series produced to date is probably more a side issue. I mean, when it has Japanese networks second guessing themselves, that's pushing things, and even titles that have pushed Japanese networks in a similar fashion in the past that were of much clearer artistic merit (like Koi Kaze and Earth Maiden Arjuna,) were not great sellers.
I mean, when you combine the possibility of media outcry with the fact you might not even turn a buck on it without getting that kind of "the rest of the medium doesn't need this"-attention, it adds up to being a very, very bad choice by any measure other than trolling to license.
That is basically me saying "It'll be interesting to see people prejudge me on a thousand word article, even though I've give big ups to other titles considered by some to be just as taboo."
After all, I've also stated I think the PROTECT Act is an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment, and that in general the principle of free speech means that under no circumstances should victimless thought crime be the basis of prosecution.
Actually, I'm reading the thread on /a/ right now, and there are people actively bragging about their downvoting, some even making the usual rumblings of using Tor and other proxy methods to load it the vote by voting multiple times. But go on...
And thank you for asking the question rather than calling me a gay totalitarian pedophile. I like that Toon Zoon has real discourse on these issues.
Anyway, the lack of tact (squick moments) starts Kodomo no Jikan off with a huge deficit. If you want to sell the emotion and the story, you don't do so by having a number of censored moments every episode (check the uncut DVD versions - there is a lot of loli panties and skin,) and leading with that element is a quick way too lose more people than you've drawn in (and this is the same problem with Chokotto and Kiss X Sis.) Part of the balance other fetish-topical series strike is that fetish always takes a back seat to the story, especially when you're trying underscore a piece of back story or drama. Often times these that rather than opening or closing on service, you're opening with drama - it's part of why Chokotto Sister is a passable manga - the fanservice is a panel or two while the story is ten panels or more, and the anime screws that up by reversing the focus. In Kodomo no Jikan, you're already starting with a manga where service takes the lead, and the anime follows that on path verbatim.
Conceptually, could someone take something similar to Kodomo no Jikan, keep it almost as fanservice-heavy, and sell it outside of a lolicon fandom? Yes, and I say that because shows like Koi Kaze, which are just wrapped up in a taboo fetish make it work. However, it requires a much different sense of direction, and it'd probably be unrecognizable relative to the manga. That wouldn't be the first time that selling the premise happens more so in the anime than manga either; Mahoromatic, which I also mention in the article, is a prime example of this. Gainax tampered with scene arrangement and pacing a bit, so while the basic story is intact, you buy into the characters a lot easier and faster, so much so that when you get to the hard fanservice that comes at the start of season 2, you're not that phased by it, even though it's not that dissimilar to what you'd get in Kiss X Sis or Kodomo no Jikan.
However, sometimes it's those minor tweaks that are everything, or at the very least, possible commercial viability vs. likely flop.
Truthfully, I was somewhat uninvolved with the list making other than pitching about 10 possible titles (the final top 5 titles were not selected by me,) and I did some write ups to make sure we actually got this done on time (mainly because I'm the only staffer whose watched a significant amount of the shows, let alone read the manga for comparison. Also, we were already late.) I don't particularly disagree with it with either, though in retrospect, sticking on Kanokon and Akican might have been better than the original picks for 4th and 5th place respectively. The rest would stay put.
Now, the top list 5 we want list? That I was very involved in, and I'll have done write ups on a good number of the picks there as well. There you can really savage me if you disagree because I ended up getting exactly the list I pitched even after we had staffers vote on it in the interest of being fair.
Anyway, as far as Kodomo no Jikan being number one, it's certainly the one that has least business with a commercial release in the state. If only on the basis it'd probably cost more to buy and localize than you'd ever make on it, it's out. The fact that lack of commercial accessibility stems from being hands down the most unapologetically lolicon series produced to date is probably more a side issue. I mean, when it has Japanese networks second guessing themselves, that's pushing things, and even titles that have pushed Japanese networks in a similar fashion in the past that were of much clearer artistic merit (like Koi Kaze and Earth Maiden Arjuna,) were not great sellers.
I mean, when you combine the possibility of media outcry with the fact you might not even turn a buck on it without getting that kind of "the rest of the medium doesn't need this"-attention, it adds up to being a very, very bad choice by any measure other than trolling to license.
Yeah, I don't want any government regulation of speech so long as it's causing no harm by it's existence, and cartoon drawings (so long as they aren't based off real people) cause nobody harm. Regulation of them would be akin to prosecuting thought crime.
However, I also know that every thing listed off on our list wouldn't sell decently at a minimum (well, School Days might do ok - people thought Elfen Lied was good after-all, and I hated it's similarly clumsy yet exploitative direction/pacing,) and they could be more media backlash than they're worth. The US Anime industry doesn't need an Agnes-chan or a Jack Thompson running around to every cable news outlet screaming "pedophile" at the top of their lungs trying to make a name for themselves. It's bad enough that's happening in Japan, and it's bad enough when it crops up in localized instances at various libraries in the US.
So, don't get me (or really anyone else on the staff) wrong. We don't want to see speech restricted at all; we just think that there are way better things the US anime industry can buy, and it'll be better PR for them in the process.
However, I also know that every thing listed off on our list wouldn't sell decently at a minimum (well, School Days might do ok - people thought Elfen Lied was good after-all, and I hated it's similarly clumsy yet exploitative direction/pacing,) and they could be more media backlash than they're worth. The US Anime industry doesn't need an Agnes-chan or a Jack Thompson running around to every cable news outlet screaming "pedophile" at the top of their lungs trying to make a name for themselves. It's bad enough that's happening in Japan, and it's bad enough when it crops up in localized instances at various libraries in the US.
So, don't get me (or really anyone else on the staff) wrong. We don't want to see speech restricted at all; we just think that there are way better things the US anime industry can buy, and it'll be better PR for them in the process.
Every movie and tv show can not and should not be held by the same standards. For example, Dora the Explorer, South Park, and Batman the Animated Series are all cartoons but you wouldn’t judge them the same way, would you? Likewise you wouldn’t judge a reality tv show about teen celebrities in a dance competition and a reality tv show about the life of WWII veteran. They're all completely different shows with a different target audience.
First and foremost, you should critique something on what its trying to be and whether or not it succeeds it giving the audience, however niche they may be, what they want. I’m not trying to say stuff like lackluster storytelling, poor character development, and bad dialogue should be excused but to think everything should have quality writing and be looked at the same way is just plain ignorant.
People need to understand that not every show or medium can cater to every single person. And just because you think something doesn’t have merit doesn’t mean others wont. If your not apart of the target audience don’t bellyache about things not being to your personal liking. Simply say “I don’t understand it’s goal or the audience its aiming for so I cant unbiasedly judge it.” Either do that, or don’t bother judging it at all.
First and foremost, you should critique something on what its trying to be and whether or not it succeeds it giving the audience, however niche they may be, what they want. I’m not trying to say stuff like lackluster storytelling, poor character development, and bad dialogue should be excused but to think everything should have quality writing and be looked at the same way is just plain ignorant.
People need to understand that not every show or medium can cater to every single person. And just because you think something doesn’t have merit doesn’t mean others wont. If your not apart of the target audience don’t bellyache about things not being to your personal liking. Simply say “I don’t understand it’s goal or the audience its aiming for so I cant unbiasedly judge it.” Either do that, or don’t bother judging it at all.
Kauai Girl
New member
Thank you for writing much of my response for me. This is exactly the point - Kodomo no Jikan, if it were a high school or college age series with the same pace, would still suffer from a fanservice first mindset in a big way. Any of the loli titles we stuck on that list would in fact still suffer from that if you aged the characters up. Actually, I might be able to at least up my suspension of disbelief a little in the case of Kodomo no Jikan, as I can buy a high school student making a pass at a teacher without previous sexual trauma much more than with a elementary school student. Even then, that still doesn't get around how the show is directed - service over plot/character. I don't really make that clear enough in the blog post either. Solid doesn't mean to me, without fault or good, it means, not glaringly problematic. However, you combine not glaringly problematic with other elements that jar the viewer out of buying into the show, and well, you get bad.
Does the lolicon element play into their lack of marketability in a country like the US? Yes. Should it? Not if the show is otherwise well written and well directed with good characterization, and the US success of series like Gunslinger Girl shows you can transcend your roots/visuals here. Does the fact that the show we listed are paced/directed poorly because of a difficult-to-market element make them very poor choices for a US company to sink time and money into? I'd love for you explain why not, and not just with "controversy will sell it" because anime was marketed with that mind set for years, and it took getting out of that and marketing it as accessible content for it to explode in the US. To put it another way, we don't need to go back to the days when anime was marketed as "cartoons with blood and boobs." Anime had that market on lock since 1990, but if we don't want to go back a 1990-size industry, the focus has gotta be on getting wider-audience series.
Also, a split release for a niche title is a sure fire way to make no money on it, especially these days. In the case of niche titles, the DVD/Bluray release has to be uncut since that's a sale to the hardcore otaku most of the time. That's why Funi's doing Strike Witches uncut on DVD - it may have been a cheap pick up, but they need the hardcore fans to buy first and foremost since it's not going to pick up much audience beyond that. The edit might have a place for streaming (I'd say broadcast, but I doubt for example Funi will even run Strike Witches on their own linear/on-demand platform,) but nowhere does it have a place on DVD. The failure of edit versions for vastly more mass-market titles (like Inuyasha, Cardcaptor Sakura, Tenchi Muyo, etc,) is proof enough that you can't split release and make more money, and that was in a much more vibrant market than exists today. Either the niche is big enough you can sell the 5,000 (often more like 15,000+) copies you need to get into the black, or you don't. If it really seems like a company wouldn't move that volume, a company shouldn't buy that title.
Does the lolicon element play into their lack of marketability in a country like the US? Yes. Should it? Not if the show is otherwise well written and well directed with good characterization, and the US success of series like Gunslinger Girl shows you can transcend your roots/visuals here. Does the fact that the show we listed are paced/directed poorly because of a difficult-to-market element make them very poor choices for a US company to sink time and money into? I'd love for you explain why not, and not just with "controversy will sell it" because anime was marketed with that mind set for years, and it took getting out of that and marketing it as accessible content for it to explode in the US. To put it another way, we don't need to go back to the days when anime was marketed as "cartoons with blood and boobs." Anime had that market on lock since 1990, but if we don't want to go back a 1990-size industry, the focus has gotta be on getting wider-audience series.
Also, a split release for a niche title is a sure fire way to make no money on it, especially these days. In the case of niche titles, the DVD/Bluray release has to be uncut since that's a sale to the hardcore otaku most of the time. That's why Funi's doing Strike Witches uncut on DVD - it may have been a cheap pick up, but they need the hardcore fans to buy first and foremost since it's not going to pick up much audience beyond that. The edit might have a place for streaming (I'd say broadcast, but I doubt for example Funi will even run Strike Witches on their own linear/on-demand platform,) but nowhere does it have a place on DVD. The failure of edit versions for vastly more mass-market titles (like Inuyasha, Cardcaptor Sakura, Tenchi Muyo, etc,) is proof enough that you can't split release and make more money, and that was in a much more vibrant market than exists today. Either the niche is big enough you can sell the 5,000 (often more like 15,000+) copies you need to get into the black, or you don't. If it really seems like a company wouldn't move that volume, a company shouldn't buy that title.
Subhashis Sengupta
New member
Just to back Karl up on the matter, there was no shortage of crazy, disturbing, violent sex among the nominations for another upcoming top 5, the anime we'd like to see licensed. One such show involved characters of underage appearance, but chances are that no one would be watching for the sake of loli fanservice. The shows selected here, however, aren't exactly anything you'd check out for intellectual stimulation, even if you're honestly not viewing them for their smutty content. Don't go looking for some sort of Puritanical bias in any of the choices we made for this top 5.
There are 260+ votes as I'm writing this. The blog has been receiving increased attention, but there's no way that many sudden votes came from anyone regularly attracted to the site. For the sake of this blog post, every vote might as well be counted as a positive.
--Romey
There are 260+ votes as I'm writing this. The blog has been receiving increased attention, but there's no way that many sudden votes came from anyone regularly attracted to the site. For the sake of this blog post, every vote might as well be counted as a positive.
--Romey
LeiZaReAnU
New member
Then all anime should be separated into it's own official/unofficial sub-category and never compared to each other, only to shows of the same ilk? So if I'm comparing two fanservice shows; one with a good story and characters to one with a terrible story and characters can I finally say one is better than the other? Or does all that nonsense like story and characters not apply to the world of fanservice shows?
So as long as it gives the audience what they want it's fine, but that doesn't excuse it being bad, and it shouldn't be considered bad because it's bad because it gives the audience what they want? Bad is just bad, there is no getting around that. It can give the audience whatever they want, that still doesn't excuse it from being bad. I love low/no budget zombie movies, but I still know they are bad, they give me what I want but they are still bad.
It doesn't matter what it's goal is, it doesn't matter what the goal of any show or movie is, a bad show is a bad show regardless of it's target audience. If you want a ton of fanservice that's great, but if it's a bad story with bad characters it's a bad show.
So as long as it gives the audience what they want it's fine, but that doesn't excuse it being bad, and it shouldn't be considered bad because it's bad because it gives the audience what they want? Bad is just bad, there is no getting around that. It can give the audience whatever they want, that still doesn't excuse it from being bad. I love low/no budget zombie movies, but I still know they are bad, they give me what I want but they are still bad.
It doesn't matter what it's goal is, it doesn't matter what the goal of any show or movie is, a bad show is a bad show regardless of it's target audience. If you want a ton of fanservice that's great, but if it's a bad story with bad characters it's a bad show.