Are torrent invite communities really trading in disguise?

WhatMan said:
You are absolutely 100% correct. The worst example I've seen of this is on a site called TTInvite, where invites are exchanged for 'invite points', and any user 'giving away' an invite can stipulate the number of invite points they want to receive in return. This basically means that trading is similar to a bartering-based economy, and invite giveaway communities are currency-based economies.

Then, the invite communities act all righteous and claim that "we're not causing any harm, we ban trades, we only do giveaways!"

The thing is, tracker staff who've given the issue some thought don't dislike trades any more than giveaways. Both of them are equally bad in our eyes, because both of them fundamentally undermine the reasons the torrent sites are invite only in the first place.

Torrent sites are invite-only because the admins need to keep the site secure and keep the economy working. Once random people start getting invited in, no matter if it's a trade or a giveaway, both of those pillars start collapsing. This is why the so-called 'anti-traders' who think they're all cool because they only give away invites really get to me.
Click to expand...

i think u hate TTinvite. but i think TTinvite is great community and TTinvite not trade anything like account or invite.

and u know whatcd is forbidden in TTinvite. TTinvite follow tracker rules.

TTinvite never break any Tracker Rules. :P
 
Rart said:
Wow this thread got resurrected :blink:

As to the posts about TTinvite (which got this thread back up), whatever the hell that is, please don't turn this thread into flames about it.

KTD, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Giveaways are fine. When they don't have ulterior motives behind them. If some upstanding member here at FST who doesn't live in the BTinvites section occasionally decides to be generous and do a giveaway based on good will, thats fine (honestly that's a little idealist but as long as it's not blatant it's fine).

The problem occurs when you enter an invite site and the entire perspective changes. No longer are invites given based on good will. Torrent invite forums, in the simplest of terms, turn into a game. It's no longer a place to turn to and "discuss" bittorrent. Everyone is there for one sole purpose: obtaining invites to better sites. People furiously give out invites, often without any care, getting banned when they invited cheaters into their cherished sites. Why do they give out invites so carelessly? Because they want rep points in exchange. That's the root of the problem. Everyone is judged not by their traits, but by a numerical value as impersonal as how many rep points or how many GA threads you have. What's the easiest way to obtain a better status, in order to get the sites you want? Do more giveaways.

In this regard, I find it nearly indistinguishable from trading. People are giving away invites fully knowing and expecting what they will be paid with in return. When they give away invites, they demand rep in return. Ultimately, albeit a bit more indirectly, by exchanging these invites you are getting rep points that will pay you back later with better invites. Trading is the same thing. You give an invite, fully expecting something beneficial to you in return. Where do you draw the line between this kind of behavior and trading? I don't know. Do you?

As a side note, even on sites that seem to fare better than others in terms of discussion, still don't provide me with what I'm looking for. The sites feel stilted at best, as if people are forced to artificially post something they believe is "constructive". I don't want someone to constantly be breathing behind my back and making sure my posts are approved. I want to post whatever the hell I want.

Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
it wasn't me I swear :happy: (i'm glad it got resurrected however ^^)

Seriously though, I wasn't really responding to your first post here (which btw is totally true - couldn't agree more with it)...rather my post was against a person who said that ga's are as bad as trading (or something along those lines - as usual I forgot to quote though lol)

Also I understand what you mean by doing ga's just for the sake of those rep points or w/e its called...I've never liked that system tbh as I think there are better ways to assess the value of a member...that said, the same system exists here too (thankfully most people here are mature enough to look past that system - but it exists nonetheless)...so my question is...why have it at all? Its clear that it doesn't tell the worth of a member and rather just leads to abuse of the system (and of the trackers/invites in question)...yet still every site seems to have the system...pretty sad really

To answer your questions though...you are right...its no different (nor better - perhaps even worse since most people see it as a good thing) than trading...doing ga's to random people for random reasons is just silly

Also I've never been supportive of the idea of arse-lickers...if I disagree with something, I say it...I don't care who it is or what it is...I will never agree with something just to get somewhere ....heck I probably would've been on FTN today if I did (that particular thread)...however, I have my own ethics, morals and things I stand by...I hate nonsensical accusations and similarly I hate people who get to places by licking other people's boots

such people, in my books, have no shame whatsoever :happy:

cheers!
 
vergo said:
Don't expect an intellectual discussion on a forum where most people aren't capable of one.
Click to expand...

As far as I know it only takes two people to have a discussion ( or fight) so unless you want to amend "most people" to "no one " the comment is self negating.


The_Martinator said:
I'm glad you said that and I completely agree. Some take their time to put a rating besides the release. It's almost always a 9/10 (you can't give it a 10, that'd be weird, lol).
Click to expand...

I give that comment a 9/10.
I'd have rated it a 10 but it's a little derivative ,lacks fluidity and the ending disappoints.
 
Keep it simple Do not ask for invite .... nor make a give away let staff recruit members from different forums ... no one gets disabled for inviting bad users.
 
The middleman issue is being left to the users consideration here
Members who are trying to capture IPs usually end up banned. It's not something you do to a community you're a part of. You're betraying all your fellow members. A good example can be found at this thread.
Members can participate in trade threads obviously. We just assume it's spam if someone is making a trade request and some guy shows up saying: "trading is bad, mmmkay?"
Same would apply if a user is requesting an invite and some guy shows up and says: "try to get it via trading, do something for yourself".
 
IdolEyes787 said:
That's my big complaint about general tracker forums - that no one seems to care about the content .The movie and TV sections are mostly comprised of what's the last movie you watched?
Some people even put this like The.Tournament.2009.DVDRip.XviD-MoH That's not a movie that 's a release you fucking idiot.

Whew. that felt good. Been wanting to get that off my chest for a while.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more.

But if they rate it (always with a number between 5 and 10 rather than 1 and 10) it means I don't have to think for myself before watching.

@NippleCake: Exactly! So many new people around the scene think having a TB uploaded in a week makes them cool or something.
 
I read what you have to say and i must agree with what that member did was essentially buy his way into an "elite" status expecting to get something in return. Personally i am against spending money on invites even if it is donating to the site (because of what this user did) i think that if like the site donate without expecting something in return. Yes fst has allot of trolls(you probably include me as one of them) but i truly believe in peoples good intentions and hope that if i do give someone an invite he will use it properly. All for all i do think that this phenomenon is negative but there is no way of stopping it in the near future
 
Er, I don't think WhatMan was saying that what.cd's methods have resulted in a clean, trusted body of 100,000 members.

It doesn't matter how many hoops you make people jump through to get into your site, unwanted people will still get in, play by the rules, and stay there. Some say that anti-p2p operatives are in EVERY known community and have been making sure they watch every new site and join it for many years now.

So it's about choosing the best ways to minimize this unavoidable reality while still allowing however many good new members you want to trickle in for you site. If you're a tracker that wants to attract *as many* good members for your site as possible, I agree with being "non-movement" but ONLY if you offer an interview process as well.

I am a STRONG believer in the interview process, it's how I got into what.cd, my first private tracker, it was what made me actually believe in private trackers. Before that, I couldn't find a way into OiNK for THREE whole years, and the trading thing I could never even break into either (tit for tat - well I did't even have tat so how could I have tit?). Ironically, as I learnt, that was a good thing anyway.

So Rart? For me, the interview process is a more effective system than allowing invites to be given away in invite forums (which among other things harbours tracker collecting), but no method is flawless and can 100% keep out the authorities.

I like e.g. TPS and the fact that some honest good people can join trackers by showing their worth to others (flaws in that system and all). *If* there were more trackers doing IRC interviews, I wouldn't be so alright with this. It just depends on how hard the tracker in question wants it for people to join their tracker.

And anyway, if a tracker is ok with gieaways at private forums, isn't that THEIR business? They have the right to distinguish between trading and giveaways, which *are* different things. One is just more secure and less risky than the other (depending on how it is done - TPS is very different to TTinvite). But nothing is perfect.

I do believe in non-movement, don't get me wrong - but if you say that anti-traders who believe in giveaways are hypocrites then you're also saying that the staff of the trackers allowing that are also hypocrites. It's just a matter of what your opinion on the issue is, and how secure you want your site to be.
 
Rart said:
Now before I really go into this, I'll detail what I normally see on FST:

If someone wants to join a site, they'll make a request and post it in the invite section.

After its posted, people will view the thread and decide whether the poster is worthy of an invite.

When they decide whether someone deserves an invite, they look at their past activity on the site. Have they been making useful posts or just spam? Have they made trades or posted in the trading section before? Have they ever had an account before, or made a request before? If you haven't noticed, one thing is missing: their BT rep.

I've rarely, if ever, seen someone judge a potential invitee by their past giveaways. Most people realize that many members are sketchy at best, and they realize people don't want to risk giving invites out on FST (not to mention many sites ban public GA's). Now that's not to say giving out invites would hurt your chances. If you lack in activity, having given out invites previously could help. I've never seen someone post on a invite request saying "You're a really good and active member of the site, but you haven't given away enough invites".

The key idea is that a BT rep of GA's isn't required.

But now turn to torrent invite communities.

I define trading as this: You are giving an invite with the intent of expecting something in return. Tracker staff ban this as it encourages invites to be given solely by the value of the invite, while ignoring the value of the member. This results in more banned members, more hit and runners, a slower site overall, and more work for the staff.

In torrent invite communities, You are giving an invite with the intent of expecting something in return.

Debate it as much as you like, but invites are almost never given out for the sole purpose of giving out invites. "Rep", along with posts, is one of crucial factors in "climbing up the ranks". Every GA has a rep requirement. If you're a 10,000 post member with no rep, you are not getting an invite. Rep is the most essential factor in acquiring an invite. Sure, you may be giving up a precious invite right now, but you are expecting great dividends. You are giving away an invite now in exchange for getting an invite later.

Take for example one thread I had seen. He was a relatively new member, probably around 1 month. I looked at his GA thread - he had SCC, GFT, the works. Oh an I forgot to mention, he had 8 SCT invites. Within a matter of days, they were ALL given out in rapid succession. He gained huge amounts of rep. He was a star in the community. Now, I know that SCT invites aren't given out for free. Once in a blue moon they may have a competition that gives out 1 or 2 invites, but this guy had 8. There was a recent 2x bonus for donations. But that still equates to paying for 4 invites, which is 50 euros. And by donating for invites you get zero upload credit. All given out, in a matter of days, to the most shady of members, collectors on invite sites. Now, you may argue that this was an act of generosity. But that is the minute exception. More than likely, it was probably a member quickly giving out invites in the hope that he would bolster his rep enough to quickly get an FTN invite (which apparently seem to be all the rage nowadays).

I ask you this: how is this different from trading? You are giving out 8 SCT invites, to total strangers that could very well get you banned from the site, not to mention that that's 50 euros in cold hard cash. You are giving out the invites, with the sole intention of expecting something in return: a high level invite because you are now a reputable member. Reputable, not from posts, activities, or past actions, but because of giving out invites. The sole principle that torrent invite communities revolve around. How is giving something and expecting something in return not trading?
Click to expand...

I think (and I don't overlook the chance that I may be wrong but take it as my opinion) that the OP was a bit confused about what he wrote in his post
Let us look at the heading
Are torrent invite communities really trading in disguise?
The way to discuss the topic as the heading suggested was to actually point out whether the rules or admins of such forums were involved or helping in trading. Now that is different from the members of a particular forum or board involving in trades i.e if a few members of Filesharingtalk.com are actively supporting trading it is not enough to declare it as a trading board or forum but the fact is that this site host a trading subsection so it is infect supporting trading as a forum/board. Now take for example a forum such as TPS. At TPS the rules and admins are clearly against the trading idea . There is no subsection supporting trades on TPS so in no way we can accuse TPS for trading if some members are dealing in trades that is there individual act. Also I have my own ideas about trading which comprise of positive and negative trades. These are explained here :-
http://filesharingtalk.com/vb3/f-ge...-trading-vs-negative-trading-you-think-378691
 
Rart said:
Wow this thread got resurrected :blink:

As to the posts about TTinvite (which got this thread back up), whatever the hell that is, please don't turn this thread into flames about it.

KTD, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Giveaways are fine. When they don't have ulterior motives behind them. If some upstanding member here at FST who doesn't live in the BTinvites section occasionally decides to be generous and do a giveaway based on good will, thats fine (honestly that's a little idealist but as long as it's not blatant it's fine).

The problem occurs when you enter an invite site and the entire perspective changes. No longer are invites given based on good will. Torrent invite forums, in the simplest of terms, turn into a game. It's no longer a place to turn to and "discuss" bittorrent. Everyone is there for one sole purpose: obtaining invites to better sites. People furiously give out invites, often without any care, getting banned when they invited cheaters into their cherished sites. Why do they give out invites so carelessly? Because they want rep points in exchange. That's the root of the problem. Everyone is judged not by their traits, but by a numerical value as impersonal as how many rep points or how many GA threads you have. What's the easiest way to obtain a better status, in order to get the sites you want? Do more giveaways.

In this regard, I find it nearly indistinguishable from trading. People are giving away invites fully knowing and expecting what they will be paid with in return. When they give away invites, they demand rep in return. Ultimately, albeit a bit more indirectly, by exchanging these invites you are getting rep points that will pay you back later with better invites. Trading is the same thing. You give an invite, fully expecting something beneficial to you in return. Where do you draw the line between this kind of behavior and trading? I don't know. Do you?

As a side note, even on sites that seem to fare better than others in terms of discussion, still don't provide me with what I'm looking for. The sites feel stilted at best, as if people are forced to artificially post something they believe is "constructive". I don't want someone to constantly be breathing behind my back and making sure my posts are approved. I want to post whatever the hell I want.

Just my thoughts.
Click to expand...
Absolutely true. The "yes men" train is the best definition to each discussion that ensues any kind of idea or suggestion.
People are artificially nice to each other, and agree so much with each other, because they have their own agenda, which is to look friendly and later apply for an invite. :dry:
There's not really any ideas exchanged there, nor criticisms, just a bunch of people agreeing with each other. And that's crap, people don't agree with each other most of the time, or have different ideas about different subjects. It's the human nature. And at those places it's completely subverted.

Yes, those sites are communities and people don't flame or criticize each other. But is it any fun having to agree with stuff you don't, just for the sake of an invitation for that "dream tracker" ?
 
Polarbear said:
Internet communities with more than 100,000 members are an accumulation of random people no matter what invite policy you have or how people were invited.
Click to expand...

Ok then,so whats your point exactly?
You rarely post retard but I think you just let this one slip.Unless of course maybe my interpretation is wrong.

In other news,I noticed FST has finally decided to be 21st and introduce the web bookmark functions.Good move I must say.They would have been really handy in the prime of that swedish nutter swe :lol:

But no facebooking or tweeting I see,I wonder who decided against those two :P.
But I did hear that gay and metrosexual aren't necessarily the same thing :unsure:
 
Great Topic and very debatable...

I believe it is trading in disguise. Expecting something in return is selfish, those who truly deserve invites will be good members and contribute selflessly back to the community. Invites that aren't going to potential good members only hurts the community.

Essentially giving invites to those that deserve it helps them as well as helps the whole community. Therefore building stronger community to bring better and unique content.

On another note, i believe highly sought after content is not all that is important, unique content really brings a community together.
 
Cabalo said:
As rart hinted, such sites are hives of traders.
As an example, I remember being at TPS and at some random thread I said I was a member at FTN. During 2 weeks i kept getting random messages of people either a) begging (and i mean, begging) me to invite them or b) people hinting what i would want to get in return to trade that account. :O RAB...
This at a explicitly non trading forum.
Click to expand...

I got the samething at TPS. On two separate occasions. Many pm's, from complete strangers either begging or hinting at trades. In my time here at FST, I've gotten maybe two or three pm's from people asking for an invite. And you would think by how people praise TPS(why? I have no idea) and bash FST, that my experience would have been the other way around.
 
ooh fancy thread...well if people don't want invites given thru trades and dislike giveaways as well...then how the heck are people supposed to get into new sites?

i dunno anyone irl who uses torrents...so does that mean I shouldn't be on any tracker anywhere? well I don't trade, my ratio's are fine (mostly anyways lol)...I'm fairly well known (in a good manner) on the sites I care about and so on and so forth...in short, I think I'm a fairly decent user/member who makes for a good person to be on torrent trackers...so just 'coz I know of nobody who uses torrents, it means I don't deserve to get in either?

can't say I agree there
 
Just because there is a trade section does not mean it is supported by FST or all the forums members. It is a members choice to trade and break their track rules. If there was no trade section here it would not stop trading. People that want to trade will go to another trade forum or do it by email,IM,etc.
wheeloftime said:
What about the 'middle-man' service? In my eyes providing a service so that trades are carried out successfully shows support for trading in general.
Click to expand...

FST has no middleman service wheeloftime.
 
Back
Top