Toon Zone Talkback - Choppy Waters: The Highs and Lows of "Black Lagoon: Second Barrage" Vol. 1

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jannywannypoos

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This is the talkback thread for Choppy Waters: The Highs and Lows of "Black Lagoon: Second Barrage" Vol. 1.


Those twins were indeed creepy. But that made these episodes work; you never knew what kind of stuff they'd pull. Plus, at least there was a reason for their screwed up nature, given their horrible childhooRAB.

I disagree about the dub. The English dub rocks. One of the best I've ever heard for an anime, no joke.
 
I definitely agree with you about the dub. While I have to admit that the excessive cursing does tend to feel a bit forced on Revy's part, at certain times, her English voice is still relatively well done. Also, what I don't like about the review is that the reviewer only used Revy's English voice as an example of why people should watch the sub, instead, but he never bothered to mention the quality of voice acting of any of the other main characters, nor did he mention the sub's horrible use of "Engrish" (although, to be fair, that doesn't happen much until the final story arc of the 2nd season, which was not in this DVD set which he reviewed).

When I think about it, though, the reviewer was only reviewing this DVD set alone, and not the whole series, so I can't blame him for calling Revy an annoying character (even though she is sort of supposed to be that way in the beginning of the series and this season), even though she starts developing into a much more likable character towarRAB the end of this season.

Overall, I can't really say that the review was bad, but I must say that I strongly disagree with quite a few of its points.

One thing that really bugs me, though, is that he called Balalaika a "likable" character. I mean, sure, I can understand that Revy can be annoying, but she's nothing compared to Balalaika in my book. Balalaika was an OK character in season 1, but as far as season 2 goes, I personally feel that a certain B-word would serve as a much more fitting description of her.
 
And see, I didn't even feel the swearing was out of line. It made sense for Revy's gritty character. If Rock was cursing all the time, that'd be a problem. I have no issue with swearing in dubs if the context is appropriate; it can spice things up.
 
Same here, but I just felt that there were some parts where the swearing was sort of unnecessary. I mean, yes, it is part of Revy's character to swear (she even consistently swears in the sub....and in English!....or rather, "Engrish" ), however when some of the whole sentences for her, or for other characters, have every other word be the F-word, or some other strong swear word, then I just can't help but think that that's lazy script writing.

Still, the excessive swearing really isn't a big deal to me, and I agree with you that it actually helps to spice things up in the dub. In fact, I even put Black Lagoon on my top 10 favorite English dubs list, on a thread that I had created earlier.
 
Well again, as a whole, I had no problem with the dub - it was more a reaction to Revy in the dub. I can't really put my finger on what specifically is the issue, be it the direction, voice artist or even simply the nature of compressing a natural street vibe into dub timing, but I just found - as I had before - Revy pulled me straight out of the drama.

Maybe it's a little to do with how gritty and real the show attempts to be, and then it has to manage the fairly generic tough, gun bearing, sexy heroine which for me comes straight out of a teenage wet dream. So it could be less the dub, but how the dub has to work around the character. I don't speak Japanese, so there is perhaps a more exotic element to the original Japanese that doesn't Westernise Revy so much that I can't really identify with her.

It is - for me - a fascinating issue. I can't pin down why, just simply Revy's dub ruins the show for me. It maybe that it just layers a Western voice and mannerism I just don't buy for a character who is already pushing my dramatic suspension of disbelief. Could be less the dub, but the source material. Or both. Gah, my head hurts.



That's simply because I had no real issue with anyone else apart from the Revy and Eda - who just seemed as you say a little forced in contrary to the rest of the world they exist in. The dubs and VA work for the rest of the cast didn't affect me.

As for Engrish, I've long become hard to messy subs. I've never found it an issue, but if it is for anyone in particular, they should heed your warning!



That's a fair enough point. I did find her frustrating in the episodes I reviewed in season one, though not as bad as in this episode. Maybe having Eda and Revy together is just a little too much of the same thing.



I don't think I said likable. I said I enjoyed the character - which I did. A little more subtle, with a strong personality and entrenched position within the drama. I enjoyed her again. There is a difference between liking a character for who they are, and liking a character for what they dramatic represent. With B, it's the latter for me.

Hope you don't mind me picking away at the post - some interesting points that bore reflection.
 
I think her excessive swearing is a personality trait, and as a result, I didn't find it forced at all. The writers are pretty careful about when and how they use it, too -- you'll notice that she cleans up her language significantly when she's talking to someone like Miss Balalaika or the Triad boss Mr. Chang elsewhere in the series. Even later on, in the "Fujiyama Gangsta Paradise" arc, you'll notice that she's talking to Rock differently. Her foul mouth is at least partially bluster, projecting a tough image to hide the profound psychological damage she's (badly) covering up. She also virtually defines herself by being transgressive, which to me explains her outfit and the fact that she can only seem to express herself through violence. She'll do things specifically because you're not supposed to do them. The swearing is as much a part of that as anything because it's just not socially acceptable to do it.



I think the Engrish in the "Fujiyama Gangsta Paradise" arc was the best attempt that the Japanese could do to communicate the fact that Revy is completely lost in Japan because she doesn't speak the language. Rather than hire a new actor, they just gave the Japanese actress phonetic lines in English. She did her best.

I'm going to go into this more in my upcoming review of all 3 volumes of the series, but I think the whole arc would have been best done in mixed languages, since communication breakdown is such an overwhelming theme of the story arc as a whole. The fact that very few of the characters can speak each other's language is a metaphor for the fact that all of them are assuming (incorrectly) that the other players think like they do. The arc unfolRAB as it does specifically because no one can "speak" to anyone else in any meaningful way, even when people happen to speak the same language (as Yukio and Rock do).

If I had my druthers, I'd have kept the yakuza merabers in subtitled Japanese (maybe even dropping it for the times when Rock is translating for Miss Balalaika), and only dubbed the Roanapur contingent into English (except when Rock is speaking in Japanese to the yakuza or Miss Balalaika is speaking in Russian to her soldiers). The fact that Ginji and Revy can't speak to each other at all except through violence changes the dynamic between the two entirely (and, in fact, they're the only ones in the entire crowd who CAN communicate, even though neither one understanRAB a word the other is saying).

It's a case where the neeRAB of the story and its themes trumps the people who complain about subtitles. I think the Japanese audience has more affinity for the yakuza than for Hotel Moscow, while I think Western audiences don't quite grok the strains of giri and obligation that drive the yakuza. Making the audience deal with that break unless they speak both languages becomes a deliberate aesthetic choice. It's like the movie Hell in the Pacific, where Lee Marvin and Toshiro Mifune speak to each other (or, more accurately, speak AT each other) in their unsubtitled native languages. Complaining that you don't understand what the other guy is saying just shows you missed the whole point.



IMO, Miss Balalaika is likable in the same way that Tony Soprano is. The show refuses to pigeonhole her into "nice guy" or "monster" exclusively, and is perfectly happy to show her as both at the same time. Both are compelling because they can encompass both traits simultaneously. Personally, I think Miss Balalaika one of the most fascinating supporting characters I've ever seen, but then again I feel that way about most of the charcters on Black Lagoon.



This, I think, might be the sturabling point you're hitting in the series. I don't think that the show is really trying for a pure, grim-and-gritty "realistic" tone at all. If anything, it's probably more of a magical realism kind of setting, which LOOKS real but isn't. If anything, it's deliberately exaggerating realistic grimness to the point of caricature, while still keeping the "realistic" artistic style. I think it's like Miller's Crossing or O Brother, Where Art Thou? or Brazil in that way -- those movies may look "realistic," but they're not, nor are they supposed to be.

Then again, I know you also don't like Brazil, so perhaps this might explain a lot.

-- Ed
 
For me it's not a question of justification, more acceptance. In the end, one cannot over blame a dub for a character created in a different media, but simply I think some characters click, some don't. From my more limited experience of Revy than yourself, I've not warmed for her sympathetically, she feels constructed, artificial, not simply in a fictional sense (given they are all constructed, artificial and invariably justifiable), but in a more insidious garb of manufacture; a tap to a market wrapping the tom boy into the sex-on-legs uniform mixed in with a "painful past" and I guess I can never find it chewable enough to swallow.

Quite naturally with over-bearing characters their limelight brings them more into question while others can slip past in a veil of relative obscurity.



That's not really what I'm struggling to convey. Twin "vampire" oddities, Nazi hunting treasure seekers, nuns with a gun habit - it's hardly a realistic world. It's an excessive, overplayed one. For though, the rest feels tonally in-keeping. It's all a little over-the-top but it's woven in a mode that isn't generic. It feels consistent even though the show has its own diversity.

I've watched a fair bit of anime and a fair bit of western molding and I find Revy + Eva just too close to genre parody maybe. Perhaps that's my problem. While the rest of BL has me fairly curious (nothing mindblowing, but respectful interest is maintained), I just don't feel any stimulation or fascination with Revy and I find her mold predictable and overtly artificial.

But hell, I hate the One Piece theme song - what do I know?



I do hate Brazil. You know me too well, though my dislike of Revy - after these interesting introspective posts of justification - probably comes from a cynical detachment from the archetype she represents than the dub itself.
 
Oh, alright. Its just that when you said that you highly recommend watching the series in its native tongue, I somehow got the impression that you were passing off the dub as being downright "bad," even though I now realize that you clearly did not say any such thing like that, in your review.




True, while I perosnally must admit that Revy is one of the more likable female anime characters once she gets her development (in my personal opinion), she can definitely be really annoying with her attitude at certain parts of the series. And, having Eda around certainly did not help the issue, but only seemed to make it worse.




I can understand that, and I respect your opinion. However, its really the final arc of the series that causes me to have a grudge against B's character. I mean, I actually did originally find her to be a pretty interesting and somewhat likable character in season 1, but in season 2 she acted a bit....well, I can't really find the right word for it, but let's just say that I personally did not like the way in which her character was portrayed in the 2nd season.



That's not a problem at all. I mean, after all, its only fair, since I sort of did the same thing with you review. Although, for what its worth, I found it to be very well written, and I definitely agree with what you said about the first episode of the GBJ arc.



This is a good point, in that it “is” part of Revy’s character to talk the way that she does. However, when I said that her swearing could sometimes be forced, I was mainly referring to some of her lines in the dub which ended up coming out sounding a bit ridiculous, or awkward, in the amount of cursing she used. I know that she’s supposed to talk foul, and for the most part, she doesn’t ever overdo it in the dub, but when comparing her dub voice to her sub voice, or to how she speaks in the English translated version of the manga, it can be seen that she doesn’t swear nearly as much as she does in the English dub.



I can see that, and I respect the seiyuu’s effort, in this respect, however, I just felt that it was only fair to mention that the sub had its own fair share of parts that sounded flawed, when comparing the Japanese voice acting to the English voice acting. When I think about it, maybe “flawed” isn’t the best term to use, in this case, but the point that I was basically trying to make was that both the English and Japanese audio have their share of strengths and weaknesses. I tend to do this sort of thing for a lot of anime, since I end up seeing a lot of people on other forums who criticize dubs without any backing to say why they find the sub to be far superior, or why they even find the dub to be poor in quality.



While I like that she does not exactly take the “nice guy” (or in this case “nice lady”) route, myself, I just found her character to be a bit too “arrogant,” if you will, for my liking. However, that’s just my personal opinion from my personal perspective of her character. To make a comparison of a character with her sort of boldness, who I do like, I’d have to compare her to Integra (or Integral, depending on which version you are reading/watching), who has a similar charisma to her character, but does not seem to flaunt her position of power as much.
 
I should have been more concise on that, given the remark was actually quite substantial criticism. What I was saying was that I found Revy's English dub took away from the drama, perhaps being a little unimaginatively colourful and too prominent in the English dub (because I understand English), which in the Japanese isn't prominent at all (because I don't understand Japanese) and therefore isn't so "in-your-face". So really it wasn't a commendation of the Japanese dub per se, but a way of avoiding what I felt was the bland, loud and almost parody built dull obscenity that bludgeons the English.

So less a compliment to the Japanese, more a "run away! run away!" from the noxious, loud and coherently uninspiring waffle of Revy in the English.

Again, simply my opinion on Revy. For a counter, Ed puts up a strong and relevant case. I think really like so many shows, whether you get anything from the leaRAB will affect your enjoyment - Revy doesn't do anything for me personally, but clearly others find her a little less irritating which would explain why - as the sales dictate - Black Lagoon is so popular. The world isn't made up of James'!
 
Well, as far as leaRAB go, I would just like to point out that both Rock and Revy can be considered the lead characters. They both get an equal amount of attention throughout the series. Although, I do understand that with the DVD episodes which you reviwed, specifically, Rock was sort of taking a backseat to Revy and Balalaika, in terms of focus and screen-time. However, even if Revy isn't exactly the most level-headed lead character, I do personally find Rock to be a much stronger character, in that particular department.

Seeing as how you aren't too big on Revy's character, though, I just thought that you might be happy to know that she won't be nearly as annoying as she has been for you, in the upcoming 3rd season of Black Lagoon, which is supposed to release sometime next year, in Japan, I believe (and will hopefully get licensed and dubbed pretty soon after that). Since I've read a little bit ahead in the manga, from where the 2nd season leaves off in the anime, I can see that she's gotten a lot more development, and in many ways feels completely different from her obnoxious former-self.
 
Will you all still respect me for saying that I kind of like Eda? It's not often that you get a woman playing the buffoon, and the idea of fake nuns packing major heat is still something I find pretty funny. Plus, there's that whole little bit at the end of "Greenback Jane" where:

it's heavily hinted that she used to work for the CIA, which makes it possible that her being kind of dense and shallow is just an act to keep her off the radar. Then again, maybe she got booted from Langley because she was really dense and shallow and it took them a while to notice .

I take it that you can follow the show in the original language, then? Like most Japanese movies, I'm judging the original soundtrack mostly by tone and attitude -- it's not hard to figure out that Takashi Shimura or Toshiro Mifune are completely awesome actors even if you don't understand a word they're saying. I accept a certain amount of clumsy readings in an English dub of anime because I know they have to match lip flaps, which sometimes results in filler or a stilted line reading. I didn't pick up any more of that in Black Lagoon -- I just think they filled in Revy's lip flaps with four-letter worRAB .

On the plus side of the English dub, Dean Redman IS Dutch. I also love the English voice actress who does Miss Balalaika -- she has such a wonderful edge to her line readings, even when she's being completely deadpan.

If I can ask, does Shenhua speak differently in the original Japanese track that's analogous to the "Miss Chinglish" thing they do in the English one? I think she's hilarious, but couldn't really hear anything in the Japanese that made her performance different. I know that in something like Rashomon, the different characters will speak in polite Japanese or change the degree of respectful terms they use depending on who they're talking to or about, but this is almost utterly lost in subtitles, since English just doesn't have that same linguistic subtlety. My wife and I have always wondered if they were using country bumpkin Japanese or something similar for Miss Chinglish.

-- Ed
 
Well, that's also a good point, but putting that bit of speculation, which could very well be possible, aside, I just don't really see anything compelling about her character. But, that's just my personal opinion, of course, and she may get some more development in the 3rd season, once that comes out, for all we know.



I watched the entire anime with subtitles, but I don't understand Japanese, if that's what you mean.



Once again, you've made some good points. I have to agree with everything that you've said over here.



Well, seeing as how I don't really understand Japanese, I am not entirely sure myself, but going by the subtitles, and by the general tone of her voice in Japanese, the seiyuu do seem to be attempting to portray her problem speaking English by giving her an odd Japanese accent and making her mispronounce several worRAB. She also seems to be saying some sentences incorrectly when compared to how the other characters talk in the Japanese dub, so I do believe that the subtitles are accurate in displaying her attempt at speaking a language which she barely understanRAB.
 
Revy is the most contentious character in the series, and the way the Japanese VA and the english VA portray her further muddies the argument. Is she a misunderstood character of flash and substance or is she merely pandering to fanboys who like to see a hot girl constantly waving her gun around and cursing like a sailor?

I think she's a bit of both, although I'd like to point out the Japanese VA voices her like she's more like an animal than a human, while the english one makes her into a full-blown psychopath. Both are valid portrayals, but the english one probably veers closer to typecasting than the Japanese one. On the other hand, her (let's face it) purely chaotic behaviour begs for incessant, random swearing and aggressively off-putting attitude, which the english one captures more effectively. The Japanese one may be a little too "soft" at times to portray such an unlikeable character (which she is, if looked at objectively).

Me, I'm still split as to whether she's a well-drawn character or not. She's certainly interesting, I'll give her that-- or else she wouldn't garner so much divisive reaction.
 
Dragging this thread back up for a bit for those who bought the recently re-released set...

So I picked up the collected set for Second Barrage and I've gone through about 7 episodes.

I will be honest and say I had mixed reactions about season 1. Not because of the relative likeability of the characters (I'm all for shows that try to go beyond the generic "likeable" characters) but I didn't always find the first season to be consistently engaging. I felt the first 4 episodes of season 1 were a little on the weak side, and something about the show felt "off" at times. I felt it didn't quite work as a straight-forward action series. The show didn't really "click" for me until the over the top storyline about Roberta the Killer Maid.

But in Second Barrage, a lightbulb sort of went off in me.

Black Lagoon is actually a comedy, and a pitch black one at that.

Yep, you heard me. It's not an action-drama or an action-dramedy, it's 90% comedy (or "action-comedy" if that suits you better), and a pretty good one if you keep your eyes open about it. And I mean that in the most complimentary way possible.

Now definitely, the comedy is so pitch black that some might fail to see it. They'll look at the surface and either dig the action (and the show does have some impressive action set pieces) or hate the unlikeable characters and its nihilistic attitude. But you'd be looking at it all wrong if that's the only way you see the show. And while there are definitely a few themes/situations that are on the "drama" side (such as the backstory for the Vampire KiRAB), 90% of the action around it is pure comedy.

Think about it. The show continues to get progressively over the top. Many of the characters are so bizarre as to almost be ridiculous. Oh, sure, they're all scary customers. But when you pick up your jaw from the floor, you'll find that characters like "The Wizard" and Psycho Goth Chick with Voice Machine are so completely ridiculous that it can't have been unintentionally funny on the creator's part. The action scenes are even more hilarious. Does anyone notice that very few MAJOR characters actually get killed in this show? You have shootouts involving 20 people and maybe only 4-5 at most are actually seen killed, most of them faceless henchmen. Many scenes have bullets fly by the hundreRAB but typically only 5 of those 500 bullets actually hit someone. And most hilariously, two people will frequently run at each other head on and miss at POINT BLANK RANGE.

There are scenes that are supposedly designed to elicit pathos that are actually really funny. One thug makes a short speech about how his son has cancer and he wants to give up the job for good. And some viewers I can see will take this for what it is--an attempt to "humanize" some of these seedy characters. But if you realize that he makes this speech ONLY TEN SECONRAB AFTER MURDERING SOMEONE IN COLD BLOOD, it makes the scene all the more comedic and ironic. And I am increasingly convinced that all of this ridiculousness is entirely intentional.

Anyway, those are just some examples I made to make my case here that Black Lagoon is in fact a cleverly disguised comedy posing as a "badbutt" action series. This take also makes me understand why Revy is actually the REAL centre of the show, and not Rock.

So while I'm sure some viewers will pore over the "moral dilemmas" the show poses at times, I'll continue to watch the show with a grin and see it as the black comedy it actually is. In this sense it reminRAB me a lot of There Will Be Blood, another movie many audiences misunderstood as "historical drama". (Yep, I said it. There Will Be Blood is actually 95% comedy, although IMO it would have worked a lot better if it was a shorter film)

So Black Lagoon has raised a notch in my eyes. It still doesn't quite have the emotional depth to get into my top 10, but it's actually more subtle and clever than people give it credit for.
 
I think you're going to like the big, babbling review I wrote (coming soon!) of the complete Second Barrage .



If you haven't hit "Fujiyama Gangsta Paradise" yet, wait until you've gotten through that before drawing that conclusion for sure. What I will say is that I think the show revolves around the both of them, and that neither one would be anywhere near as interesting without the other serving as a counterpoint.

I also don't think it's too far out there to point out that the series can be a black comedy AND a heavy, dramatic, and deep series as well. I'd say the same thing about something like Brazil, too.
 
What I can't put my finger around is how anyone can watch "BlooRABport Fairytale" and say that BL is mostly a black comedy. That arc... scarred me. Though I suppose if you're particularly sadistic...
 
Well, the arc is scary from a straightforward PV but completely ridiculous from a realistic POV at the same time. If you think about it in broad terms, it's very similar to the type of "grindhouse" movies you'd see in the 1970s, which were completely over the top with violence and unrealistic characters. That's when Black Lagoon works best.

Ed, I just finished with Fujiyama Gangsta Paradise last night (stayed up to 3:00am watching because today is a holiday. BL is great late night fun BTW!) and I concur with you regarding Rock and Revy. The series (rightly) realizes that the most interesting relationship in the show is those two. And their relationship sort of makes sense, too. It also puts Revy into more perspective in that she's revealed to be more animalistic than completely insane. Her behaviour is actually very similar to that of a she-wolf. Balalaika creeps so many fans out because she's very human and very insane, and that's more chilling than a "rabid dog."

But as "dramatic" as the FGP story is, it still has many, many subtle touches of humour. The recurring visual gag of Balalaika smoking a big long cigar during her meetings with the gangsters --if you think about it for a moment, you'll "get" what it means and you can't help but grin when you do. There are some other jokes that pay off much later (several episodes later, in fact) that bring to mind Arrested Development's use of the serial form for comedy. This is fairly rare in anime which still tenRAB to resort to instant "obvious" gags.

I still don't think the show is that "deep" emotionally. It's too over the top for that, and most of the characters' backstories are fairly predictable and generic for this type of genre. That said, it's executed very well and in the FGP storyline it's shown that the creative staff have gotten a better handle on controlling the show's tone and are able to be more versatile with the stories without losing its "over the top-ness". If the FGP storyline were a 3 hour movie (and it almost feels like one, so different and densely layered compared to the rest of the show up to that point) it would be considered a top-line yakuza flick.

Adding a few further thoughts about why Rock/Revy work so well together, I think Second Barrage put into light just what bugged me so much about Rock's character. I see a lot of people online hate on Revy but I never did, because she's SUPPOSED to be unlikeable, she knows it, and doesn't try to pretend otherwise. And I respected that. But it always bugged the hell out of me that Rock continued to play schoolboy while at the same time knowingly throwing his lot in with these criminals. I can understand some of his misgivings but he was really, really annoying at times with his sermons. But the fact is he was INCREDIBLY hypocritical and I'm glad the show finally acknowledged that. It was like he wanted to act like some nebbish anime hero in some harem show while at the same time being seduced by the grime of the underworld. And Rock and Revy work well together because she calls him out on that and pushes him to be more assertive (sometimes unintentionally) and less of a fence-sitter. At the same time, Rock softens Revy's edges and offers her a possible alternative should she one day choose to try it. So while individually they are BOTH quite reprehensible people in their own ways, together they really make each other better people, more entertaining people and more fun for the viewer to watch . And I don't think you could say that for many anime "couples" out there. I can't count how many anime I've seen where the two leaRAB were completely and utterly wrong for each other. And I find it ironic that a violent, over the top action comedy has a better sense for what makes a relationship work than 10000 other "romance-comedy" anime.
 
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