Star Trek Nemesis --- underappreciated?

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ol_skool63

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I must say, I was VERY doubtful about watching it when it showed on TV last week, but I did, and I'm really surprised by how good I thought it was, considering the hate it seemed to have engendered.
Far, far better than "Insurrection" (not hard, I know), I would almost place it as the sequel to "First Contact", in terms of action, story, character development and ending. I thought it had all the proper elements, hardly any mushy bits, even Riker and Troi's wedding, and everyone in it seemed to have fun!
Data's death was very well done, not at all overly telegraphed, not hinted at, and not overly dwelled upon, and when he said "Goodbye" to Picard, I guess he was really saying goodbye to the fans too. I found it quite moving.
The central theme of the film wasn't totally bad either, and I thought the whole idea of Remus and the Remans opened up new possibilities for future Trek films, even series, to exploit.
All in all, I was VERY impressed, much to my surprise, and would even go so far as to list it as one of my favourite ST films.
So, the question then is, why did everyone seem to hate it so much?
 
I agree to a certain extent, it was nowhere near as bad as Insurrection which would have been a poor episode never mind feature film. I would put it above Generations too.

I was disappointed though, I would have rather it focused more on the Romulans and Romulus than bringing in the Remans who were previously unheard of. I also found the clone storyline silly.

It also really annoys me that the twin planet of Romulus is Remus - it's probably been explained but why on earth would the Romulans name their planets after two characters in ancient greek mythology.
 
Im in the like it club too.
After following TNG for 7 seasons I too found Data's death scene moving aswell. It was a sad moment but also a happy moment at the same time due to Data getting what he always wanted which was to be more human.
 
I liked 'Insurrection', it was a gentle film compared to 'First Contact'. 'Nemesis' doesn't feel right. It feels empty and soul less.
 
The biggest problem, I felt, with Nemesis was the basic premise. Anyone who had followed the production knew that Berman and co wanted to produce the next "Wrath of Khan." They had said they wanted to give Picard his nemesis (hence the title) just like Kirk had with Khan.

So what did they do? They decided the best way to give Picard his ultimate nemesis was to make "Evil Picard." It reeked of comic book villainry, right down to Tom Hardy's patomime portrayal of the character. The reasonings behind the clone also felt forced, just so the character could exist.

The Wrath of Khan comparisons continued with Shinzon's ultimate weapon. But whilst the Genesis Device was an interesting sci-fi concept and allowed the script to play with the age-old notion of good tech being turned into devastating weapons, Shinzon's technobabble radiation was there purely to give him a weapon of mass destruction to add some menace and tension. The rip-off of the Genesis device is most aptly demonstrated by Shinzon using the weapon as his last-ditch attempt to wipe out the crippled Enterprise and only fails through the death of a much-loved character.

It felt too much like they were trying to re-tell Wrath of Khan.

But it wasn't just Wrath of Khan that felt ripped off. Shinzon's "mind rape" of Troi was ripped straight out of an episode of TNG! Same character being mind raped, too. Some people like to think of this as an homage to the old episode, but to me it was too similar and too big a piece of Nemesis's plot to be anything more than a straight rip. It was too obvious for anyone who was a fan of the show and really cheapened the script.

Then there was the car chase. Why, oh why? It felt like someone was ticking off action movie prereq's. You gotta have a car chase. It was completely out of place. Completely unnecessary to the plot. On top of that, we have Picard driving like a maniac (and suggesting a Wrath of Khan-like subplot about the crew growing old might have been cut short of the final script) for no apparent reason and -worst of all - showing no consideration for his precious Prime Directive whilst invading a less civilised planet and opening fire on its inhabitants. What happened to the Picard who would allow himself to die before polluting another civilisation?

Talking of action movie prereq's, we must not forget Shinzon's wild attack on Earth. Where did his hatred of humanity spring from? We'd listened to his character development throughout the film and his obviousl target for mass-annihilation was Romulus. He clearly had a hatred for the Romulans, yet he decides to launch armageddon on Earth. Once again, it was like someone said "you can't have a sci-fi epic without putting Earth at risk." his reasonings were pretty poor, too. As if destroying Earth would make the 150-world alliance that was the Federation fall apart. As if the 10,000-odd ships they were supposed to have had post-0Dominion War would have just given up and not gone flying mental at the Romulans for this. It was Epic Fail on Shinzon's part. Has he never read history? Does he not understand military structure? It was just so stupid on so many levels. There was no motive and no gain to be had. Poor plotting and poor characterization.

Now having said that, Nemesis isn't all bad. Tom Hardy may have hammed it up as Shinzon the villain, but when he was wrestling with his good side and playing friend to Picard, he carried the role well. One only wishes he could have done a "Darth Vader" at the end and saved himself from becoming such a two-dimensional villain. The final space battle is epic and among the best ever done on Trek. All it needed was tighter plotting around it. There was also some typically good Next Gen moments and the discussions of what makes a man were up there with what made the series a success. Listening to Picard and Data weigh up whether Picard would have ended up like Shinzon in different circumstances was the stuff Trek always did so well.

Unfortunately, for me, the negatives just far outweigh the positives. The main problems lie in the very guts of the plotline and a contrived story and villain undermine anything good that can be made from the rest. No matter how interesting the discussions of the origins of one's personality are, one cannot get away from the fact that it hinges on a weak plot intended to give Picard his "Khan" and nothing more.
 
Someone on here made the comment about the new Kirk/Spock early years film that it showed technology far far advanced when compared to the 1960s TV series.

It's bound to! But I had never really thought of it. :D
 
Doesn't most of the ire directed at Nemesis emanate from Trekkies pissed off about Picard violating the Prime Directive in the opening sequence?

Conveniently forgetting the fact that Kirk violated said directive about 3 times an episode in the original series.
 
Doesn't it seem odd to use Kirk's actions as defence for Picard acting out of character?

Kirk wasn't in Nemesis. If he were, no-one would compain, because it wouldn't be out of character for him. It was out of character for Picard, however.

That's like saying it wouldn't be weird for Geordi to start speaking in a Scottish accent because Scotty did it all the time!
 
I believe the explanation was that Romulus and Remus are the Federation names for the planets, as opposed to the species names for their own homeworlRAB. Due to the convenience of Trek's universal translator, we only ever hear the Federation names for the worlRAB.

That's the official explanation. The real one, of course, is that some writer thought it would sound cool. ;)

BTW, isn't it Roman mythology, as opposed to Greek? (which probably is a moot point anyway, as most of Roman mythology is stolen/adapted from the Greeks anyway) Romulus and Remus built Rome, did they not?
 
I was just watching Nemesis today on my lunch-hour on the iPhone and still to this day, there are things that simply do not make any sense to me.

B4 - I remember seeing the trailers and thinking 'HOLY HELL, LORE IS BACK!', but instead we get stuck with Data's idiot brother. Not only did it seem stupid that Noonen Soone would even leave a broken down prototype lying around, the only place he could have left it was back on Omicron Theta, which is where Data was found in the first place. I'm not even going to start on the fact that Data was described as much different to B4 by Geordi, only for the Reman scientists to completely miss the fact when Data infiltrates them.

Shinzon's mind raping of Troi had absolutely ZERO point. There was no need for it whatsoever. The bit where Riker and Troi are in bed and we see Shinzon, then the Viceroy. There is no explanation at all for this. It seems like the whole thing was a setup for Troi to be able to detect the ship later on and even then it doesn't particularly help the Enterprise. Of all the movies I've seen, this poltline still stumps me the most.

Shinzon as a whole had great potential but the explanation for his existence was pretty damn ridiculous in all honesty - a clone created to enable the Romulan's to have an agent in the highest part of Starfleet. A lot of trouble for a pretty fallible plan. The Tal Shiar wouldn't have come up with that flimsy an idea (and had they bothered to use the fall of the Tal Shiar as the reason for its rejection, I may have taken it better) and its hard to believe that they would have bothered at all.

The original script is available online and I don't think having the whole thing would have explained much more. Oh yeah, and cutting out Leah Brahms from movie? SHAME ON YOU RICK BERMAN.
 
Also would have helped for the clone to actually look like the person he was cloned from.

By far the worst ST film (even The Final Frontier). I hate it.
 
I like it. I think it's the second best of the Next Generation films, my favourite being Generations. I think First Contact is quite overrated.
 
Nemesis is in my opinion the best of the TNG films, if only for the Picard and Data interactions. It also has Jim from Neighbours in it, which can only cement its place in Trek history...

The only good thing about First Contact was the Borg space battle and seeing the Defiant getting its ass handed to it. 'Prepare for ramming speed! = Best line in the film. :D


As much as it pains me to say it though, the TNG films are all a bit on the poor side. But Final Frontier is easily the worst of all.
 
Not to mention the technology in the prequel series Enterprise. :D

With regarRAB to the technology in TOS, there's a nice line in the RAB9 Trials and Tribbilations episode, where Dax says she loves the late 23rd Century design. :D

I think the new movie implies a reason for the updated technology via its story arc.
 
I have it on DVD with the extras cut scenes.:eek: LOL

There where a few scenes cut concerning Shinzon and Troi. He was trying to see inside the Enterprise and its defences but go distracted by her. Always comes down to sex:rolleyes:
 
Hmm! What a hornet's nest I've stirred up! :)
Hellbore, your explanation intrigues me the most, and really does show me why so many profess to hate the movie. I must say though, perhaps it's shallow but I tend to avoid over-analysing a movie and just enjoy it. That said, I did hate the fact that in STVI they used the fact that the Enterprise was carrying equipment to detect ion radiation or somesuch to locate the Bird of Prey --- it wasn't! It was Sulu's ship, the Excelsior? -- that was! MAN, that bugged me! But I still enjoyed the film.
Let's go quickly through your main points then, see where we end up?

OK, maybe this was lazy writing, but they could have made him a long-last half-brother, like Spock's in STV, and I thought the idea of a clone, though now exposed as a PRETTY STUPID PLAN (who was in control of the Romulan Senate at the time? Baldrick?) was not bad. TBH the impact of his introduction was lost on me, as I didn't realise he was a clone of Picard till someone said it! As nemeses go though, who else could we have had? Locutus, from a parallel universe? Q? Picard hasn't really GOT a nemesis. Maybe that Cardassian who tortured him in "Chain of command"? Anyway, I think creating a nemesis for Picard was always going to be a tough call, so once they had decided that was what they were going to do, a clone is as good an idea as any. Maybe they hoped that their clone, as Picard, having the ears of admirals and other high-ups in Starfleet, could have some influence on Federation policy-making?
MAN that was a long paragraph! :)
So, moving on...

Never got this to be honest, though now you say it I can see the similarlities. I don't think it's ripping off WOK though.

Not to me. As I said, I never made the connection, and still enjoyed the film on its own merits.

Of course I realised this was from TNG's "Violations", and tbh I think it was brave to put it into what was basically a mainstream film, by which I mean ordinary non-Trek fans would be exposed to it. Where you see a rip-off, I see a shoutback, so I guess we'll agree to disagree there. I did like how they used it as a device to locate the enemy ship, too: real woman's revenge on her rapist --- "Remember me?"


Ah, that was just a bit of fun, put in to "mainstreamise" (is that a word?) the movie. Everyone loves a car chase! And what Starfleet captain HASN'T broken the PD? It's practically a rite of passage! :)

Well. I thought that was obvious. He was a clone of Picard, knew he was dying, and Picard was a human, so naturally his anger and resentment would be directed towarRAB the race from which he had been copied?

I really don't think he cared. I think he just wanted to hurt Picard, and this was the best way to do that.

Well, surely if he had done that, that would have been the easy way out, and people would be complaining that "Star Trek does Star Wars!"? Unwinnable argument there. I think it was better that they let him stay bad to the bone. Like Khan. Woops! :)
Anyway, despite all your points above I really did enjoy it, the moreso because I hadn't expected to. For me, it WAS one of the better Trek films, which surprised me considering how much hatred and vitriol, and contempt had and has been directed at it.
Just goes to show, take no-one's opinion of anything as gospel!
 
Just a few points to look into here, too...


Oh yeah, with you on that! I of course (like every other Trek fan) thought LORRRRRREEE! when I saw the Data andriod, and was in fact very disappointed to find out it wasn't him. I think, in fact, Lore would have been a good nemesis for Picard (though of course they kind of explored that in "Descent", didn't they?)
I have no idea why he was left on a faraway planet, and tbf, no valid explanation was offered, which was lazy writing. Maybe NS always carried a spare with him, in case he needed to whip up a Data-copy (backup?) wherever he was? :)
Nah, it was very lazy storytelling and there's no getting away from that.


Well, I think you've answered your own question there. Shinzon wanted to get "in bed" with Troi (who wouldn't?) :) --- he had already formed something of an infatuation with her at their first meeting, and Picard, though he prefers Bev, has surely had some sort of fantasies about his counsellor?
But generally, yes, it was setup a) to give Sirtis something to do in the film (she did bugger-all else!) and b) to allow the detection of Shinzon's ship later.


As I explained to Hellbore, it just so happened that Prator Baldrick had had a cunning plan that day, and the senators had all had too much Romulan ale... :D
 
I like the film and I think it's not nearly as bas as people make out and much better than insurrection. I think the concept was brilliant although it probably didnt come off as well as it could have done on the screen. I've read the novel of nemesis and it is a brilliant story, much better than the movie.
 
I think it COULD have been Lore. Data could've said that he had no idea how he could have been there and then we get an explanation something along the lines of his shut-down body had been stolen from the University in which he was being studied at (which could have ended up being the same one as 'All Good Things'...Cambridge was it?). A throw away comment and pretty contrived but still, fan boys like myself would have bought it just for the fact that it was Lore. He could have been stupid like B4 and the explanation given that Data had done this to try and make him worthwhile for functionality.



Indeed. Others have said that in cut scenes it shows that Shinzon wishes to know about the defensive capabilities of the Enterprise. Just ONE mention of this in the final cut would have made it passable. Instead, we get Shinzon wanted to get his rocks off with Mrs Riker. Had he picked on Beverly, we could have had scenes where Picard felt some rage towarRAB him and Beverly might have thought it was a dream and found herself enjoying it.

Even with that cut-scene explanation, the Scimitar is overwhelmingly more powerful than the Enterprise-E so he didn't really need to do it anyway. A few shots and it disables the warp drive, another few and the hull is breached. They made the Scimitar TOO powerful.



They all did. It was mentioned a lot in that movie.

I agree with you Trollheart, on a whole it's a decent enough movie. From a Trek point of view, it disappoints, Data's death didn't feel necessary or particularly powerful and Riker swanning off to command the Titan when he'd turned down BETTER ships in the past felt pretty weak.
 
Does the novel cover any of the issues mentioned in this thread? I might pick it up if it does, just to see what it could have been.

I've read the script but it doesn't do much better.
 
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