Star Trek Nemesis --- underappreciated?
- Thread starter ol_skool63
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Haha, don't think you've stirred up a hornet's nest! I'm not getting mad and angry over the film. Just thought I'd weigh in my two cents as to why I didn't like it.
I'm not one of those Trekkies
I agree, the long lost brother idea is even more naff -and Trek 5 was immesuarably more naff than Nemesis, too!
I think you hit the nail on the head, though, when you said it was always going to be tough to come up with a nemesis for Picard. I think that was the mistake of the film. They should have developed a story first, instead of concentrating on just a figurehead villain.
But if they wanted to give Picard a foe to go toe-to-toe with, I'd have brought back Romulan Commander Tomoalok from the TV show. He was always an underused villain and he really stood well against Picard in their encounters. He was also Patrick Stewart's favourite villain from the series and the actor, Andreas Katsulas, was a heavyweight in his own right. They could have been awesome in a movie together.
It's all down to the ending for me. If the weapon hadn't been used in its "countdown to anihilation," as Shinzon gives up on his plan, accepts his own death, but uses his last card to take Picard out with him, then there would be no comparison. But because of the already accepted link to WOK (due to Shinzon being Picard's "Khan") it just seems too similar an ending. Particularly when you add Data's sacrifice to save the Enterprise.
Like I say, on its own, it wouldn't appear a rip-off. But as one more element from an admitted attempt to make TNG's Wrath of Khan, it seemed like cheap writing. In fact, I'd say it felt like fan-fiction.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. I just cannot see it as a shoutback. Again, fan-fiction comes to mind. Bad fan-fiction, I should add, as not all fan stories are bad. But the worst ones are always the one's that simply rip off all the cool ideas the pro writers did on the TV shows/movies previously. This just feels like more bad fan-fiction.
Mainstreamize is pretty much the same as my comment on tick off a prereq chart. Stuff thrown in without meaning just cheapens the film in my eyes. It didn't need to be there. It was completely irrelavent.
The problem with the Prime Directive part, however, is unforgivable bad characterisation, in my eyes. Watch any TNG episode centred around the PD and Picard would either lecture on its value as a philosophy or be willing to let people - including himself- die to uphold it.
For him to abandon it so flippantly in Nemesis was as far out of character as it could be. I could accept him breaking it in exceptional circumstances, where he's had to weigh up the dire situation, but not because he fancies a joyride in his new dune-buggy.
That's the problem; the car chase is considered more important to the film than the characterisation. That's bad writing for the sake of schoolboy action sequences. That ain't good filmmaking.
But it never seemed to be. It was all aimed at the Romulans. Plus, I don't really see how his hatred would be aimed towarRAB the place where he originated from. Surely a distant, never-before-seen home, where life is so much better than his, would be seen like heaven to him. Its what he could have had, if not for those pesky Romulans.
I'm not one of those Trekkies
I agree, the long lost brother idea is even more naff -and Trek 5 was immesuarably more naff than Nemesis, too!
I think you hit the nail on the head, though, when you said it was always going to be tough to come up with a nemesis for Picard. I think that was the mistake of the film. They should have developed a story first, instead of concentrating on just a figurehead villain.
But if they wanted to give Picard a foe to go toe-to-toe with, I'd have brought back Romulan Commander Tomoalok from the TV show. He was always an underused villain and he really stood well against Picard in their encounters. He was also Patrick Stewart's favourite villain from the series and the actor, Andreas Katsulas, was a heavyweight in his own right. They could have been awesome in a movie together.
It's all down to the ending for me. If the weapon hadn't been used in its "countdown to anihilation," as Shinzon gives up on his plan, accepts his own death, but uses his last card to take Picard out with him, then there would be no comparison. But because of the already accepted link to WOK (due to Shinzon being Picard's "Khan") it just seems too similar an ending. Particularly when you add Data's sacrifice to save the Enterprise.
Like I say, on its own, it wouldn't appear a rip-off. But as one more element from an admitted attempt to make TNG's Wrath of Khan, it seemed like cheap writing. In fact, I'd say it felt like fan-fiction.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. I just cannot see it as a shoutback. Again, fan-fiction comes to mind. Bad fan-fiction, I should add, as not all fan stories are bad. But the worst ones are always the one's that simply rip off all the cool ideas the pro writers did on the TV shows/movies previously. This just feels like more bad fan-fiction.
Mainstreamize is pretty much the same as my comment on tick off a prereq chart. Stuff thrown in without meaning just cheapens the film in my eyes. It didn't need to be there. It was completely irrelavent.
The problem with the Prime Directive part, however, is unforgivable bad characterisation, in my eyes. Watch any TNG episode centred around the PD and Picard would either lecture on its value as a philosophy or be willing to let people - including himself- die to uphold it.
For him to abandon it so flippantly in Nemesis was as far out of character as it could be. I could accept him breaking it in exceptional circumstances, where he's had to weigh up the dire situation, but not because he fancies a joyride in his new dune-buggy.
That's the problem; the car chase is considered more important to the film than the characterisation. That's bad writing for the sake of schoolboy action sequences. That ain't good filmmaking.
But it never seemed to be. It was all aimed at the Romulans. Plus, I don't really see how his hatred would be aimed towarRAB the place where he originated from. Surely a distant, never-before-seen home, where life is so much better than his, would be seen like heaven to him. Its what he could have had, if not for those pesky Romulans.
I really don't think he cared. I think he just wanted to hurt Picard, and this was the best way to do that.[/qote]
Surely his plan to hrt Picard was going to come to frition when he drained him of all his blood?
The attack on Earth was treated as Shinzon's offer to the Romluan military if they spported his coup. The Romulans allowed him to take over the government and he used his funky spaceship to take out the Romulans biggest rival.
The idea might have worked if it was revealed that Shinzon had deceived the Romulans and his intent to destroy Earth was only to provoke the Federation into destroying the Romulan Empire.
Shinzon wasn't intending to die by the end of this film; he was intending to live on once he'd stolen Picard's blood. He didn't want to die in some blaze of glory.
It all seems a little fool-hardy of a man we'd been told was a military genius to start his new life by instigating a bloody war he probably wouldn't win. It also makes the Romulans look pretty stupid to think that taking out Earth would not plunge them into another interstellar war.
Well I wasn't actually expecting him to turn around and throw the Viceroy down a shaft or anything like that! But having Picard beat him by appealing to his concience would have been more Trek-like, would have fitted with him being a clone of Picard, would have added tot he unique connection Picard and Shinzon would have had with each other and would have saved us from Tom Hardy hamming it up as pantomime Shinzon for the last act
But hey, that's just an idea of mine. Hardly a relavent commentry on the film, so take it or leave it. I'm not a Hollywood screenplay writer, either!
I actually don't despise the film, either. I can sit down and watch it, but it wouldn't be the first choice I'd put into my DVD player. However, it would get there before eitherr The Motion Picture or Final Frontier!
But then you should never take anyone else's opinion as gospel. Everyone has different tastes.
Mandibulin
New member
I like all the films, I don't think there is truly a "bad" one. Some are more engaging than others, but they're all interesting enough.
sammeesmee
New member
TBPH, I think RIKER dying to save the Enterprise would have been much more powerful. A, hes human, and no matter how much we like Data, he is in the final analysis a machine, B, it would have been more compelling, shocking and heartbreaking, seeing as how Riker had (finally) married Troi AND assumed command of his own starship, C, it would have hit Picard much harder and D, it would have given Troi something to cry about, so at least she'd have something to do in the movie, perhaps even setup some sort of revenge motif for her in the next one (or the one after that)?
Though it was effective, I think killing off Data was the easy option.
Now Wesley dying. Hmmmmm....
Though it was effective, I think killing off Data was the easy option.
Now Wesley dying. Hmmmmm....
Hellbore, re Tamalok: the main problem I see with that is, rather obviously, Andreas died, and I don't really see it being right they should draft in another actor to try and take over the part.
Like I say, nemeses for Picard are thin on the ground. He did have a sort of "sparring relationship" with Gowron, but he helped him more than hindered him, so I couldn;t really see that working. Q, originally, great nemesis, but they ended up making him comic relief (althogh they tried to redress that balance for AGT, but more or less failed imo: he was already seen as the "cosmic clown" by then, and it's hard to retool your thinking, as it were). The Borg Queen? Well, they did that, didn't they, and you couldn't really have a "First Contact II" (sort of makes a nonsense of the name, really).
Perhaps if they had had Riker be taken over by something that directed his actions and made him turn against Picard? He fought him (as Locutus) in BOBW and also in "Peak performance", and essentially won both times. Hard for Picard to go up against his "Number One"... plus there'd be Troi to consider. Whose side would she take?
In general, yes, I think the whole idea of a nemesis for Picard was a bad one, and set the movie at a disadvantage from the start. It could have been much better.
Still, I did like it.
BTW, most obvious line EVER in a ST film? ST VI, Bones to Kirk when they arrive on the penal colony and an alien is growling at them, pushing Kirk around: "He's definitely on about something, Jim!" Well, DUHH!
Like I say, nemeses for Picard are thin on the ground. He did have a sort of "sparring relationship" with Gowron, but he helped him more than hindered him, so I couldn;t really see that working. Q, originally, great nemesis, but they ended up making him comic relief (althogh they tried to redress that balance for AGT, but more or less failed imo: he was already seen as the "cosmic clown" by then, and it's hard to retool your thinking, as it were). The Borg Queen? Well, they did that, didn't they, and you couldn't really have a "First Contact II" (sort of makes a nonsense of the name, really).
Perhaps if they had had Riker be taken over by something that directed his actions and made him turn against Picard? He fought him (as Locutus) in BOBW and also in "Peak performance", and essentially won both times. Hard for Picard to go up against his "Number One"... plus there'd be Troi to consider. Whose side would she take?
In general, yes, I think the whole idea of a nemesis for Picard was a bad one, and set the movie at a disadvantage from the start. It could have been much better.
Still, I did like it.
BTW, most obvious line EVER in a ST film? ST VI, Bones to Kirk when they arrive on the penal colony and an alien is growling at them, pushing Kirk around: "He's definitely on about something, Jim!" Well, DUHH!
Armielene C
New member
Plenty of problems with the film. From the point of view of a Trek fan, huuuge issues with continuity and characterisation. From the point of view of an ordinary film viewer, no character development, cheesy action scenes, lame writing, ripped-off plot.
Biggest example of what's wrong with Nemesis? Data's death. Why was it in there? The answer is solely that the actor, writers and producers thought it would be cool. You don't make a good film by approaching the writing with your principle objective being "include cool stuff!"
As a keen film fan I thought it was deeply flawed, as an avid Star Trek viewer I thought it was abominable and that the series would have been better off without it.
Biggest example of what's wrong with Nemesis? Data's death. Why was it in there? The answer is solely that the actor, writers and producers thought it would be cool. You don't make a good film by approaching the writing with your principle objective being "include cool stuff!"
As a keen film fan I thought it was deeply flawed, as an avid Star Trek viewer I thought it was abominable and that the series would have been better off without it.
justice4jcc
New member
Data's death didn't happen because the script writers thought it would be cool. It happened because Brent Spiner, who partly wrote the story, felt he was too old to continue playing the character, and felt that Data's sacrificial death would be the ultimate way of achieving the character's lifelong ambition to become human.
I watched this last night oddly enough and enjoyed it. Very clearly patterned after Wrath of Khan but once you get past that its a good sci-fi tale.
You can see that by bringing in Stuart Baird to direct and the writer of Gladiator they were trying to go for a new, wider non-trekkie audience. And it worked in that the film is much more accessible to a general audience than First Contact or Insurrection.
Unfortunately, the general audience had been lost already because of the previous two films, so all this really did was piss off devoted fans of the next generation. Its main appeal is to those who like sci-fi action but aren't into Star Trek enough to be bothered about the character / continuity errors. and there aren't many of us!
You can see that by bringing in Stuart Baird to direct and the writer of Gladiator they were trying to go for a new, wider non-trekkie audience. And it worked in that the film is much more accessible to a general audience than First Contact or Insurrection.
Unfortunately, the general audience had been lost already because of the previous two films, so all this really did was piss off devoted fans of the next generation. Its main appeal is to those who like sci-fi action but aren't into Star Trek enough to be bothered about the character / continuity errors. and there aren't many of us!
wanttoknowpleasex
New member
I've only seen Nemesis once...and I can't really remember it.
But for me theres a point where every franchise just gets repetitive, and what happens loses its appeal.
For me Insurrection is even worse, because to this day, I can't remember the plot, and I don't even care about the plot. Generations and First Contact I can, and I like those films.
I'm being very loose in what I'm saying here, becuase my feelings are neboulous to say the least. I can't say why I don't like it, because I never cared enough in the first place about the last two TNG films to work it out.
But for me theres a point where every franchise just gets repetitive, and what happens loses its appeal.
For me Insurrection is even worse, because to this day, I can't remember the plot, and I don't even care about the plot. Generations and First Contact I can, and I like those films.
I'm being very loose in what I'm saying here, becuase my feelings are neboulous to say the least. I can't say why I don't like it, because I never cared enough in the first place about the last two TNG films to work it out.
I always felt Nemesis was at least a couple of re-writes away from the film it should have been (and wanted to be).
There's plenty to pick at. The Troi mind rape for example, not only was there no point to it, but it was only put in there to keep Marina Sitris happy cause her ego couldnt handle the fact Troi didnt play a central enough role in the movie.
There's plenty to pick at. The Troi mind rape for example, not only was there no point to it, but it was only put in there to keep Marina Sitris happy cause her ego couldnt handle the fact Troi didnt play a central enough role in the movie.
Marie-Lise
New member
Like you do!!!