Presenting toonzone's Top 25 Anime of All Time!

YYH's longer fights barely last an episode and most of the time they don't last very long. Other shonen could learn a thing or two from it's pacing. Including One Piece, which outranked it on the list.

Also, I don't care what anyone says but Chapter Black is just great writing. Togashi might be working in a shonen framework, but he does it well. You can cry and whine (deservedly) about how cliched most shonen are, but YYH is simply not. You can see the tropes that some shonen have, but YYH goes beyond them and strives to tell a good story with good characters instead of simply doing the obvious.

Just because you don't like the basics of the shonen genre, doesn't change the fact that YYH is still an exception and standout among it. It has it's place because it's aged incredibly well and is still a pure joy to sit down and watch.
 
Too true. I still enjoy a good DBZ episode now and again, although I do a lot of "skipping"...

I honestly can't put long running shounen anime on my top 10 because simply put, *at least* 20-25% of every shounen show is fairly useless material. It's no secret that it's a common anime practice to drag out a shounen anime so that it doesn't get too far ahead of the manga.

I much prefer anime adaptations of manga that is already done, or an original story made just for anime altogether. Even then though, I just don't have any strong attachment for "tournament" anime aside from the guilty pleasure of seeing the characters slowly advance through every opponent and see enemies' get their comeuppance as our hero learns new SKILLS at every level, and so forth.
 
PHW Was just pointing out that that was the ONLY really long fight in the entire series. Every other fight is much shorter. And even then, there wasn't as much action going on as there was character revelations. There were a lot of moments where the action was interrupted (in clever plot-oriented ways, rather than just forced interruption to drag out the fight) to allow for a good amount of interaction to be seen between other characters. So, in other worRAB, those 4 episodes weren't just Yusuke and Toguro fighting for every single minute of it. Had that just been the only thing that was happening, the actual fight itself would have barely even lasted more than 1 1/2 episodes (probably even a little bit less).



You might want to stop making assumptions, since a lot of the time assumptions can tend to be plain wrong (and that goes for just about any kind of assumptions).



I hope you to realize that Shounen is a VERY broad demographic of series, rather than just 1-single genre, which is a HUGE misconception that most so-called shounen haters make. I can perfectly respect your opinion if you hate "battle-oriented" shounen series, but you seem to be referring to shounen as if all of it was comprised of series like that. Because if you hate most shounen series, oreven all of them, then that would mean that you would also hate Full Metal Panic! (the novel chapters were serialized in a monthly shounen publication magazine), Fullmetal Alchemist, Great Teacher Onizuka, Death Note (yes, this was actually serialized in Weekly Shounen Jump so it IS a shounen series by that regard), Bakuman (which is from the same author and artist of Death Note, is actually about writing shounen stories, rather than actually being a typical battle-oriented shounen series itself), and many others which have little to nothing to do with fighting.

I only bothered pointing this out because I feel that its a very big misconception, while battle series are probably the most popular examples of shounen series, they don't by any means definie the demographic as a whole, as shounen in itself is NOT a genre.

Also, as far as YYH goes, despite what some may claim, its a series that actually puts much more emphasis on its plot than on its action (hell, in the manga, the fights are even much shorter than they are in the anime, and most of them don't even last that long in the anime to begin with). The clear proof of this is YYH's Chapter Black arc, in which there literally isn't any real fight until the end of it. Mosto f the time the characters are constantly at a life-threatening game of strategy and wits against opponents who are mostly far weaker than them, but are still extremely threating based on their sly and cunning strategies (and this is a very common characteristic of Yoshihiro Togashi's other famous shounen manga as well, Hunter X Hunter, as there is far more emphasis on strategy and actual thinking rather than brute strength, as power alone rarely ever predicts the outcome of any events in the story).
 
Well, I don't like Death Note and FMP. But I do like and respect FMA, but I find it somewhat heavy handed in the way it hits its emotional notes. Again, typical of a youth skewing show.

I love GTO though. And it scratched the top 10 of my list just on the comedy alone. Even the fillers were full of comedic gold, and that's why it sniffed my top 10.

But yeah, we should make a distinction between those "battle oriented" shounen (of which there are plenty) and some of the other shounen genres. It's tough to get away from the stereotypical shounen image of the spiky haired hero battling his way through a tournament though.
 
I'm curious, can you actually go into deatail about any shounen arcs that follow the exact same formula as YYH's Chapter Black arc? Or could you explain what makes it like a "video-game" (aside from the actual part in which they are actually forced to play through a psychic boy's simulation of a video game, of course )?

I can respect your opinion since you've seen the series, but I personally feel that it adRAB MUCH more than just a few new "wrinkles." In the Chapter Black arc, we were introduced to a whole new type of ability that had little to do with the standard spirit energy that we had known about before, and instead of having more powerful enemies which is what IS a standard shounen formula, we actually had a brand new team of enemies who mostly had little to no actual fighting/corabat abilities, with the exception of their leader, Sensui, and the whole arc had very little fighting until the end, as it was mostly based on how Sensui was using his sly nature to manipulate those under him to share his hate for humanity, while also constantly being able to outwit his foes. The twist about his character towarRAB the end of the arc also doesn't really follow and shounen or "video-game" staples that I know about. the arc had little to nothing to do with strength and very little emphasis was actually put on fighting until literally teh very last episode of it. It was purely plot-based and it had absolutely no "tournament-style" formula to it.

I can go into detail about how even the Dark Tournament arc goes so far beyond just being a simple tournament arc, but I doubt that it will change your mind on the show. Of course, I'm not trying to change your mind here, since your opinion is your own, and I can respect that. However, I do believe that the show does far more than just following typical shounen formulas, and seeing as how I'm not the only one who feels that way, I can at least justify its position on the list by saying that it can never be said to be factually a shounen that just mainly sticks to tried and true formulas.



Well, I was really just using those as examples of shounen that are generrally not battle-oriented, nor to do they follow any big shounen staples (FMA does a little bit, and FMP to a lesser extent, but neither of them do so enough to be considered as part of the same genre as battle shounen).



For me, GTO's biggest strength is that it has one of the most well-crafted main characters out of any manga or anime series (IMO, at least). Of course its great use of comedy as well as drama (in the most serious moments) helps maintain its great quality, as well.



The easiest way to do that, IMO, is to just label those battle series as "battle shounen" rather than simply just calling them shounen in general.
 
These four episodes are not continuous fighting. There are several plot developments/character development moments that interrupt the fight, so four episodes doesn't end up seeming that long since so much happens in that span. When I say the fight lasted four episodes, it's because the fight started in one episode and concluded four episodes later, but that's far from all that happens in that time span.There's the problem. If you haven't seen it, you can't accurately comment on what we're talking about. But that's been addressed above, so I'll leave that be.Put much better than I did, but yes, exactly my point. Thank you.Bingo. Plot and characterization (I'll reiterate the the main four are my favorite enserable cast of any series I've seen) are the real shining stars of YYH. The action is good, but it's made all the better by the plot and such that leaRAB up to it and hinges on the outcome. That makes it stand out against other series for me because there is often a proliferation of action for the sake of action. YYH doesn't fall into this trap. Yes, it still does the traditional shounen things, but it does them in its own way to the point the staples don't particularly seem like shounen staples at all.

EDIT: I'm just being beaten to it left and right
 
Oh sweet, for once it was my small comment being blown out of proportion rather than the other way round!

Alright, let me qualify that a bit.

Yes, it's the action/fighting shonen things I tend to loath a lot more than the other kinRAB but specifically, it's the T.V. shows addapted from long running manga where the overly long fight scenes are so long simply because the T.V. show writers are trying to pad the show out so that they don't have to resort to filler arcs.

It makes for bad fight scenes because they don't flow nicely when they're so long for the simple fact that no real fights ever DO last that long. There's only so many times you can swing a sword/fist/whatever before it becomes increadibly repetative to watch, so it ruins whatever might have been good about the original and it encourages so many tropes that I dispise, such as opponents pointlessly exchanging witless banter between EVERY SINGLE MOVE, characters looking on in amazement and going so far as to explain what should be plainly obvious to anyone paying attention and on and on.

All I meant by the comment was that when someone says 'And the longest fight scene is only 4 EPISODES LONG' that's a pretty telling and dismal assesment of a genre as a whole, nothing more than that and it was not intended to be a comment about YYH at all, as I say, I've never seen it.
 
I understand your position. It's been a while since I saw YYH, but I do remeraber the chapter black arc and it was very entertaining.

And you know, some shounen shows do scratch at greatness at times. Look of Rurouni Kenshin's Kyoto arc.

But the thing is, you have to take 20 or more episodes of lesser stuff. YYH is not just one arc or two. Kenshin is not just one arc. If Kenshin was just the Kyoto arc, it would be a difficult for many people to rate it lower than top 8. If YYH was just the arc you described, then maybe...

But my main argument isn't whether how good YYH is. It's a very good shounen show, and a standout of its genre. I don't deny it.

I'm just saying, why overpraise a show that does a few new things within a formula when there are shows out there that don't even follow established genre formulas? That's like saying, "I think Dark Knight is the greatest movie of all time because it does new things with the superhero genre." You would be surprised how many people say this. Okay, I get the DK is a good superhero movie. But I'm like, "Really? A better movie than Vertigo? Better than Goodfellas? Better than Schindler's List? Better than A Clockwork Orange, Persona, Chinatown Tokyo Story, Ikiru, Army of Shadows, It's a Wonderful Life, Casablanca, Citizen Kane, etc, etc,."

It's true that we don't have the whole history of anime available in America. But we still have plenty. There are some wonderful examples of anime shows out there that feature non-genre specific writing. It's okay to rate a lesser known show highly. It really is.
 
Unwardil: As for not liking long-running battle-oriented shounen series, that's all fine and dandy. My response to you in that regard was just to point out that battle series don't represent shounen as a whole, since you referred to it as your hate for the "shounen genre," which I just pointed out that, in itself, is a very general term, as shounen is a type of series that is meant for a rather wide-ranged demographic. The term shounen itself does not refer to a specific genre. Call me nit-pick if you will, but I just have a need to point out misconceptions like that.
 
You know, you say this "it follows a formula" stuff as if it was a bad thing, its totally not a bad thing. What people like about Yu Yu Hakusho isn't is "formula" or any of that garbage, its the characters and the story and how engaging it is... and how it entertains, which are very good, that's a good enough reason to praise a show, whatever cliches or standard plot lines it may have don't really mean anything.
 
And oddly enough it managed to be so great while following a very typical formula (at least it was very typical on the outset).



Well, this is the part which I feel is purely opinion-based, but I would actually agree with you that most shounen consist of many episodes of lesser stuff. Howeve,r aside form the Spirit Detective arc, me and many others just don't feel that YYH is conisted of too much lesser stuff. I find it to be a shounen which is far more consistent in its quality than most other battle-oriented shounen series, and not just by comparison to them, but in its own right. I would say the same for the Rurouni Kenshin manga.



Yes, but I'm jst saying that in YYH case, it does A LOT more than just adding a few new things to an old formula (I even said that I could go into detail aobut how other arcs besides just the DT arc did this). And once again, the term "overpraise" is all opinion. I think that YYH's praise is well-deserved. But, don't get me wrong, I definitely feel that there are shows on the list that get more praise than they deserve, but I don't hold anything against those shows placing so high, since my feelingo f them being overpraised is based purely on my own opinion and personal preferences, rather than the show factually getting more praise than what it deserves.



Once again, this is what I like to call opinion. Have you ever considered that some people may just like the superhero genre better than those other movies which you listed? Now, don't get me wrong, I'd take many of those movies which you listed over The Dark Knight, myself, but it doesn't make someone wrong for saying that its one of their favorite movies, since its based on their opinion and preferences.
 
But plenty of shows have good characters and are engaging. Not just YYH. There are plenty of shows below it that are just as good as YYH in that department. I'd rate FMA just as highly in that department. Same with One Piece.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing YYH. I'm just looking at a list that's top heavy with shounen battling action shows and wonder if that's simply the only anime most people are watching. Because they most assuredly are not the only good ones out there.
 
Well, when it comes to lists like this, it's a matter of personal preference. Obviously a large nuraber of our merabers watch and prefer shounen shows. As such, accounting for the demographic of the board, it makes sense that two of the better, if not best, shounen series period would make the top 3 in One Piece and YYH.

And I will say that of all the series I've seen, and I've seen plenty of non-shounen series, YYH has my favorite cast. Their quirks and interactions make them stand out above everything else I've seen. Whether it's a genre-piece or not, if a series has great things about it that people love, of course they'll speak of it highly and it'll make lists like this.
 
You know what the difference between those thre shows are, they all have different story's and narratives and different characters, and people just prefer Yu Yu Hakusho and the way it does things and its characters over say, FMA, and there's nothing wrong with that.
 
Writing for a shonen magazine you kind of have to follow some sort of formula, heck everyone does to some extent. It's what the writers DO with that formula that counts.

If you can name me an anime more original and deserving of it's spot, go ahead. But I'll be sure to post the formula that show is sure to follow, too.

YYH is not overpraised. It is executed brilliantly and it is rightly praised for it. That's really all there is to it.
 
Well no, I haven't considered that at all during this thread. Oh wait, I guess I said this a few posts earlier:





You make it sound like I'm bashing YYH which I'm totally not. I'm just making coffee talk about anime, genre entertainment, and all that stuff. I can pick at a show without disliking it.




If that's how it's going to be, I guess this conversation is at an end. I knew I shouldn't have pursued this line of thought too deeply, because it's not something I tend to do and almost always enRAB badly (questioning opinion polls, that is).
 
My thoughts aren't too far off from Larry's; I think YYH is quite good, but there's enough really high quality anime that I'd have real trouble objectively putting it in my top 10. For me, it's not doable. As entertainment though, it definitely does get the job done. One thing I'd add to the characterization praise is that in the Dark Tournament, the only reason the characters are fighting is because they have no choice. Furthermore, quite a lot is said about the purpose of power, how you use it, and so on. It's done in such a way that Yusuke's growth isn't just about him beating Toguro to survive, but about what kind of man he is ultimately going to be. Good stuff in my book.

So Larry, what would be your top 10? I'm very curious to know.
 
Oh come on, I'm just kidding. I don't actually want you to do that, I'm just saying. It's all opinion anyway, and a lot of people really like the way YYH is made and comes together. Shonen, no I should say anime, like that is not that common.

I personally don't know how some (not you) can say YYH is overrated then vote One Piece #1, but hey that's just me.
 
Fair enough, I had always taken the term Shonen to mean 'Stuff targeted primarilly at early to late teenaged boys with action as the primary selling point' but if that isn't what is meant by the term I'll happilly be enlightened on that.
 
I put my list in the votes thread, but I actually forgot how the list came out. I actually put Evangelion somewhere in there. I think I had GTO in there (maybe). I had Galaxy Express 999 (TV) in there. Honestly, I've given up rating what anime I think are "better" than others. As Ensatsu said, it's largely based on opinion, and despite my seeming YYH bashing, I like shows for what they are.

I just would like to see some lesser known shows get some attention. Unwardil loves Last Exile. I don't as much, but that's the kind of thing I like to see more of in these things...some more variety in here rather than the usual Shonen Jump suspects. Is it because people PREFER Shonen Jump anime over other anime? Or is it because they haven't seen a lot of anime outside of SJ? If it's the former, fine. But if it's the latter, that's a shame.

It's not that I think SJ anime is bad, I just think maybe there are other anime--not necessarily better or more "deserving" of attention--but deliver just as much pleasures--if not more--from a character and story standpoint.



I'm still here.

But you have to be honest, these things do tend to end badly.

But I don't think YYH and OP are overrated necessarily...I just think that sometimes other shows maybe get underrated.

For example, Gintama won this month's anime of the month, a show I've rarely heard of. And I like that. But if you threw it into this list, it wouldn't even dent the top 10 I bet.

Edit: Corrected nuraber. Plus correction: Gintama is in this list. Not in the top 10 though.
 
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