T
TheDOMINATOR
Guest
Very nice list; it was a very good and interesting read.
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D
Dill-man
Guest
Hm... Goodfellas the top Scorsese. Can't say I agree but I get where everyone who voted for it is coming from.
Gonna go ahead and make a bold prediction:
3. Pulp Fiction
2. The Godfather
1. Blade Runner
Gonna go ahead and make a bold prediction:
3. Pulp Fiction
2. The Godfather
1. Blade Runner
I
Iroquois
Guest
Yeah, my request for a delay wasn't really necessary as these things take ages to get off the ground and finalised, so I guess I'm safe.
D
Dill-man
Guest
So would I. I don't understand why people like that movie... it's derivative, ridiculous, and just plain stupid.
Y
Yoda
Guest
To be fair, your post was filled with inarguable claims, either because they're subjective, or because they're unfalsifiable. Like "I don't get why it's just instantly assumed to be number one" (who says it's "assumed"? It seems to be legitimately chosen), or "Members of AFI who dissent are probably just chewed out as trolls" (do we really have reason to think they are?). And really, there's not much discussion to be had when someone calls a classic "overrated."
It's fine, of course, there just isn't always a whole lot to say to those kinds of things. And to be fairer still, you were kind of deliberately trollish at first, so it wouldn't surprise me if a number of members just sort of wrote you off right away. That'd be a pity, but it wouldn't be surprising.
But since you want discussion, I'll certainly give you some on Schindler's List:
This is one those complaints that I feel is thoughtful, articulate, interesting, yet still wrong.
Your description of Schindler's greatness seems perfectly consistent with what I saw on screen; we see him at the parties, we see him swept up in the zeitgeist, we see the opulence he receives in exchange for his soul. We get lots of little touches, like people noting that his suit is made of silk, and asking him where he got it. In the tradition of "show, don't tell," we see all this, and are not merely told it. What really needs to be said? Should be monologue about his inner struggles? I think merely showing us his extreme level of comfort and success does the job better.
He's not exactly a "Jew-saving machine," either. If he were, there'd be little to necessitate his legendary self-flagellating speech on the train tracks, where he realizes how little he actually did compared to what he could have done.
As for "THE MOMENT," I think this is both a necessary narrative device, but also something true to reality: even if there is never a single moment where we go from good to bad, and even though every decision is inevitably the culmination of millions of thoughts beforehand, there is still a moment when we make up our minds to do something. And, this being a movie, that moment is a logical pivot point to focus on.
As for "you see something and you're different" -- I feel like we must have been watching different films. The majority of the runtime sees Schindler encountering one atrocity after another and showing varying levels of sympathy. He clearly doesn't love what's going on, and he goes from general indifference, to distaste, to horror, to action. He's not completely carefree up until that moment; we see him clearly uncomfortable many times before that.
It's fine, of course, there just isn't always a whole lot to say to those kinds of things. And to be fairer still, you were kind of deliberately trollish at first, so it wouldn't surprise me if a number of members just sort of wrote you off right away. That'd be a pity, but it wouldn't be surprising.
But since you want discussion, I'll certainly give you some on Schindler's List:
This is one those complaints that I feel is thoughtful, articulate, interesting, yet still wrong.
Your description of Schindler's greatness seems perfectly consistent with what I saw on screen; we see him at the parties, we see him swept up in the zeitgeist, we see the opulence he receives in exchange for his soul. We get lots of little touches, like people noting that his suit is made of silk, and asking him where he got it. In the tradition of "show, don't tell," we see all this, and are not merely told it. What really needs to be said? Should be monologue about his inner struggles? I think merely showing us his extreme level of comfort and success does the job better.
He's not exactly a "Jew-saving machine," either. If he were, there'd be little to necessitate his legendary self-flagellating speech on the train tracks, where he realizes how little he actually did compared to what he could have done.
As for "THE MOMENT," I think this is both a necessary narrative device, but also something true to reality: even if there is never a single moment where we go from good to bad, and even though every decision is inevitably the culmination of millions of thoughts beforehand, there is still a moment when we make up our minds to do something. And, this being a movie, that moment is a logical pivot point to focus on.
As for "you see something and you're different" -- I feel like we must have been watching different films. The majority of the runtime sees Schindler encountering one atrocity after another and showing varying levels of sympathy. He clearly doesn't love what's going on, and he goes from general indifference, to distaste, to horror, to action. He's not completely carefree up until that moment; we see him clearly uncomfortable many times before that.
P
Pyro Tramp
Guest
Enjoying the list so far, my top three- Evil Dead 2, Oldboy and Blue Velvet- made it so all good Gonna presume Chinatown and Blade Runner will be up soon making top 5
R
rice1245
Guest
I watched Clerks once a looong time ago and wasn't that impressed but i was also cinematically stupid at the time =\ so i should probably give that another watch.
And i support The Big Lebowski being in front of Shawshank i love the Dude
And i support The Big Lebowski being in front of Shawshank i love the Dude
H
Harry Lime
Guest
Alot of smart High Schoolers on this site, all in AP classes. Have either of you read The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test?
P
planet news
Guest
I thought about it immediately, but I realized that I can't even begin to choose right now having seen so little Bergman and ONE Fellini film (8 1/2) as well as missing out completely on many other great directors.
I'm in no place to be making big long lists.
Currently, I'm also very biased towards Asian cinema--especially Japanese and Taiwanese cinema--because I've been watching almost only that for about a year now.
SL and FL are just 2 prime examples of "you must liek it or else" films that have major thematic flaws undermining the very reasons "I must liek it". La Vita e Bella is the best holocaust film IMO, because of the very reason that it is a comedy, except at the end. Breaking the Waves is the best film about a simpleton.
"Unfalsifiable"? Jesus, critiquing art is not a science. My god, the one thing you can't argue with is something that is falsifiable. The discussion would consist of the statement and its counterproof and that would be it.
---
Without internal struggle demonstrated, he is very clearly an opportunist. What's worse is the position he takes always as "the head of the family", in other words, the head of the fascist state itself, even if such a state is made of Jews. The visual/emotional discourse to characterize Schindler is the same as that of Hitler. He is this elegant savior who brings his people into a new age through fascist collectivization with himself as the paternal leader. The Jews are reduced to being his children. What we want to say now is that Schindler is no better than Hitler. Keep in mind that he "chooses" them. The Jews, themselves the "real" chosen race, with the Nazis re-appropriating this title for themselves, ashamed of their own inadequacy. Schindler creates his private fascist state inside of Hitler's. Even worse because it is the nested core, a perverted reversal of roles in which the oppressed themselves do not even know it, in fact, they have come to love it. His final line, "I could have saved more" is nothing more than Hitler's own deranged imperialist Napoleonism.
The discourse itself is suggestive of the opposite of the attempted message. It undermines itself. Without clearly demonstrating Schindler's moral struggle, the act is not selfless but cynical. He too benefits from the arrangement, you remember.
I'm in no place to be making big long lists.
Currently, I'm also very biased towards Asian cinema--especially Japanese and Taiwanese cinema--because I've been watching almost only that for about a year now.
SL and FL are just 2 prime examples of "you must liek it or else" films that have major thematic flaws undermining the very reasons "I must liek it". La Vita e Bella is the best holocaust film IMO, because of the very reason that it is a comedy, except at the end. Breaking the Waves is the best film about a simpleton.
"Unfalsifiable"? Jesus, critiquing art is not a science. My god, the one thing you can't argue with is something that is falsifiable. The discussion would consist of the statement and its counterproof and that would be it.
---
Without internal struggle demonstrated, he is very clearly an opportunist. What's worse is the position he takes always as "the head of the family", in other words, the head of the fascist state itself, even if such a state is made of Jews. The visual/emotional discourse to characterize Schindler is the same as that of Hitler. He is this elegant savior who brings his people into a new age through fascist collectivization with himself as the paternal leader. The Jews are reduced to being his children. What we want to say now is that Schindler is no better than Hitler. Keep in mind that he "chooses" them. The Jews, themselves the "real" chosen race, with the Nazis re-appropriating this title for themselves, ashamed of their own inadequacy. Schindler creates his private fascist state inside of Hitler's. Even worse because it is the nested core, a perverted reversal of roles in which the oppressed themselves do not even know it, in fact, they have come to love it. His final line, "I could have saved more" is nothing more than Hitler's own deranged imperialist Napoleonism.
The discourse itself is suggestive of the opposite of the attempted message. It undermines itself. Without clearly demonstrating Schindler's moral struggle, the act is not selfless but cynical. He too benefits from the arrangement, you remember.
T
TheUsualSuspect
Guest
Ew, Master & Commander.
Y
Yoda
Guest
Just realized I have a few things to say about Forrest Gump, as well.
Hmm, sort of. I'd replace "success" with "happiness." Which, given everything else I'm about to quote below, seems like the crux of our disagreement on the film.
Forrest seems to care very little about his success in a financial sense. And the "true love" is more of the general, love-for-mankind sense, not in the Princess Bride sense (hey, Robin Wright Penn's in both).
These are fun little episodes, to be sure, and more than a little random, but they're not the ultimate reason he's successful, and they're not the most important parts of his life. The ping pong thing is almost completely incidental to everything else that happens, for example, so let's just focus on his speed.
The speed is certainly useful when it comes to running away, and arguably useful for helping him rescue those soldiers, but by and large it just gets him into college. But what does that get him? His diploma ends up being largely irrelevant, seeing as how he just ends up in Vietnam.
Besides, I don't have to tell you that the story has a fable-like quality to it at times, so his speed almost seems like a karmic reward for the leg braces, which I'd always assumed strengthened his legs and made him faster, whether or not that's at all plausible in reality.
But really, the key thing here is not that he's successful, but that he doesn't care that he's successful. He likes it well enough, but his attitude towards money is that having it just means he has "one less thing" to worry about. He has roughly the same temperament when he's a terribly poor, crippled boy as he does when he's a very comfortable multi-millionaire. I think that pretty definitively undermines the idea that the film is about success.
It sure is, but movies are allowed to have obscene characters. She's a counter to Forrest in most ways; she thinks only of herself, and never seems satisfied with what she's doing. She's always looking for the next thing. She's the polar opposite of Forrest in all these ways.
I'd say she's a bit more tragic than anything, but really, she has to be pretty distasteful, because it makes it that much more significant that Forrest accepts her, anyway.
Hmm, sort of. I'd replace "success" with "happiness." Which, given everything else I'm about to quote below, seems like the crux of our disagreement on the film.
Forrest seems to care very little about his success in a financial sense. And the "true love" is more of the general, love-for-mankind sense, not in the Princess Bride sense (hey, Robin Wright Penn's in both).
These are fun little episodes, to be sure, and more than a little random, but they're not the ultimate reason he's successful, and they're not the most important parts of his life. The ping pong thing is almost completely incidental to everything else that happens, for example, so let's just focus on his speed.
The speed is certainly useful when it comes to running away, and arguably useful for helping him rescue those soldiers, but by and large it just gets him into college. But what does that get him? His diploma ends up being largely irrelevant, seeing as how he just ends up in Vietnam.
Besides, I don't have to tell you that the story has a fable-like quality to it at times, so his speed almost seems like a karmic reward for the leg braces, which I'd always assumed strengthened his legs and made him faster, whether or not that's at all plausible in reality.
But really, the key thing here is not that he's successful, but that he doesn't care that he's successful. He likes it well enough, but his attitude towards money is that having it just means he has "one less thing" to worry about. He has roughly the same temperament when he's a terribly poor, crippled boy as he does when he's a very comfortable multi-millionaire. I think that pretty definitively undermines the idea that the film is about success.
It sure is, but movies are allowed to have obscene characters. She's a counter to Forrest in most ways; she thinks only of herself, and never seems satisfied with what she's doing. She's always looking for the next thing. She's the polar opposite of Forrest in all these ways.
I'd say she's a bit more tragic than anything, but really, she has to be pretty distasteful, because it makes it that much more significant that Forrest accepts her, anyway.
G
Guest
Guest
Apparently I can't sticky threads in this section, without sending them to that sub-forum. I give until Yoda shows up.
Sprite, I took the other thread down, but get him to do this.
Sprite, I took the other thread down, but get him to do this.
M
MovieMan8877445
Guest
Great list, I love all of the top 3.
M
mikeython1
Guest
Yeah you should post what members submitted. I would be intrested in who contributed.
T
TheDOMINATOR
Guest
I'm unsure about the list itself so far (), but the format is very nice. Can't wait to see more.
T
Thursday Next
Guest
I like nearly all of that last bunch. So I probably voted for some of them, but can't remember which ones...
B
BobbyB
Guest
5 more coming tomorrow afternoon and then the last 5 will be revealed 1 by 1.
H
Harry Lime
Guest
28. harrylime
27. Dill-man
26. Caitlyn
25. Lennon
24. mikeython1
23. mark f
22. meatwadsprite
21. Powdered Water
20. Iroquois
19. uconjack
18. Martyofevil
17. Sawman3
16. Vertical Gunn
15. The Dominator
14. MovieMan8877445
13. SamsoniteDelilah
12. Pyro Tramp
We have Mikey on there twice Lennon, thanks by the way, good researching. And are you going to nominate a couple of movie characters for the little tourney we have coming up or what, you said you were in? You can nominate your beloved Kevin Smith characters if you like.
27. Dill-man
26. Caitlyn
25. Lennon
24. mikeython1
23. mark f
22. meatwadsprite
21. Powdered Water
20. Iroquois
19. uconjack
18. Martyofevil
17. Sawman3
16. Vertical Gunn
15. The Dominator
14. MovieMan8877445
13. SamsoniteDelilah
12. Pyro Tramp
We have Mikey on there twice Lennon, thanks by the way, good researching. And are you going to nominate a couple of movie characters for the little tourney we have coming up or what, you said you were in? You can nominate your beloved Kevin Smith characters if you like.
D
downthesun
Guest
100) The Station Agent
99) Blue Velvet
98) Midnight Cowboy
97) Taxi Driver
96) Clerks II
95) Requiem for a Dream
94) Platoon
93) Short Cuts
92) The Wizard of Oz
91) Ran
90) Lost in Translation
89) Terminator 2
88) Magnolia
87) Pan's Labyrinth
86) Twelve Monkeys
85) Wonder Boys
84) Breakfast at Tiffany's
83) Arsenic and Old Lace
82) O Brother, Where Art Thou?
81) Show Me Love
80) The Departed
79) Ratatouille
78) The Blues Brothers
77) Chasing Amy
76) Dogma
75) Dial M for Murder
74) Vertigo
73) Young Frankenstein
72) Schindler's List
71) Raging Bull
70) The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
69) Forrest Gump
68) The Incredibles
67) Evil Dead II
66) Master and Commander: Far Side of the World
65) Groundhog Day
64) Blazing Saddles
63) Singin' in the Rain
62) No Country for Old Men
61) One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
60) Withnail & I
59) The Usual Suspects
58) Se7en
57) The Godfather II
56) The Treasure of Sierra Madre
55) Donnie Darko
54) Brazil
53) Akira
52) Raising Arizona
51) Lawrence of Arabia
50) The Last of the Mohicans
49) Children of Men
48) Spirited Away
47) The Third Man
46) The Princess Bride
45) The Silence of the Lambs
44) Die Hard
43) Monty Python and the Holy Grail
42) Seven Samurai
41) The Shining
40) Alien
39) Once Upon a Time in the West
38) Jaws
37) Sense and Sensibility
36) The Crow
35) Sin City
34) American History X
33) The Searchers
32) To Kill a Mockingbird
31) The Dark Knight
30) 12 Angry Men
29) The Matrix
28) Full Metal Jacket
27) City of God
26) Mulholland Dr.
25) Oldboy
24) Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back
23) Some Like it Hot
22) North by Northwest
21) Apocalypse Now
20) 2001: A Space Odyssey
19) The Shawshank Redemption
18) Clerks.
17) The Big Lebowski
16) Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope
15) Braveheart
14) Dr. Strangelove
13) Unforgiven
12) A Clockwork Orange
11) Casablanca
10) Fight Club
9) Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
8) Amelie
7) Raiders of the Lost Ark
6) Chinatown
5) Lord of the Rings Trilogy
4) Goodfellas
3) Blade Runner
2) Pulp Fiction
1) The Godfather
I've seen the ones in bold
99) Blue Velvet
98) Midnight Cowboy
97) Taxi Driver
96) Clerks II
95) Requiem for a Dream
94) Platoon
93) Short Cuts
92) The Wizard of Oz
91) Ran
90) Lost in Translation
89) Terminator 2
88) Magnolia
87) Pan's Labyrinth
86) Twelve Monkeys
85) Wonder Boys
84) Breakfast at Tiffany's
83) Arsenic and Old Lace
82) O Brother, Where Art Thou?
81) Show Me Love
80) The Departed
79) Ratatouille
78) The Blues Brothers
77) Chasing Amy
76) Dogma
75) Dial M for Murder
74) Vertigo
73) Young Frankenstein
72) Schindler's List
71) Raging Bull
70) The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
69) Forrest Gump
68) The Incredibles
67) Evil Dead II
66) Master and Commander: Far Side of the World
65) Groundhog Day
64) Blazing Saddles
63) Singin' in the Rain
62) No Country for Old Men
61) One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
60) Withnail & I
59) The Usual Suspects
58) Se7en
57) The Godfather II
56) The Treasure of Sierra Madre
55) Donnie Darko
54) Brazil
53) Akira
52) Raising Arizona
51) Lawrence of Arabia
50) The Last of the Mohicans
49) Children of Men
48) Spirited Away
47) The Third Man
46) The Princess Bride
45) The Silence of the Lambs
44) Die Hard
43) Monty Python and the Holy Grail
42) Seven Samurai
41) The Shining
40) Alien
39) Once Upon a Time in the West
38) Jaws
37) Sense and Sensibility
36) The Crow
35) Sin City
34) American History X
33) The Searchers
32) To Kill a Mockingbird
31) The Dark Knight
30) 12 Angry Men
29) The Matrix
28) Full Metal Jacket
27) City of God
26) Mulholland Dr.
25) Oldboy
24) Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back
23) Some Like it Hot
22) North by Northwest
21) Apocalypse Now
20) 2001: A Space Odyssey
19) The Shawshank Redemption
18) Clerks.
17) The Big Lebowski
16) Star Wars: Episode IV - A New Hope
15) Braveheart
14) Dr. Strangelove
13) Unforgiven
12) A Clockwork Orange
11) Casablanca
10) Fight Club
9) Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
8) Amelie
7) Raiders of the Lost Ark
6) Chinatown
5) Lord of the Rings Trilogy
4) Goodfellas
3) Blade Runner
2) Pulp Fiction
1) The Godfather
I've seen the ones in bold
M
meatwadsprite
Guest
C'mon Lime , that's child's play. I'm reading something a little more adult , then again I'm a senior after all.