OpenSource P2P Debate, it's about choice

OK, apart from those bearshares that are too many hops from the edge of the bearshare cloud. But I take your point.

Well, there are too different things going on in that opensourcep2p gnucleus client.

I haven't seen it, but I understand that one option is to stay on gnutella and just block on an ID basis, eg user can choose just bearshare, or as Anonnn urges on the web page, block all commercial vendors, or whatever they like. I believe the user types in the string.

The other option is use the other 'network' or 'opensource' which should be enough to block any non-configured client, but in practice I don't think this is proven. So in addition the gnucleus client blocks all the known commercial clietns based on vendor id.

I think that option 1 is a side-effect of the lack of certainty about the effectiveness of the strategy of changing the connect string header. And since it needed to be implemented to block fully on the opensource network, the 'extra benefit' is that it can be employed on the gnutella network as well with no extra programming effort. So he let the user decide.



So now you are arguing against the second network - the second network doesn't block anyone from using the original gnutella network. It leaves the original gnutella network intact, save for the loss of users, who maybe would leave anyway. It is arguable.



Well, in one case, the gnutella network, it is up to the user, could be any number. I think probably only BS, MRPH, LW at the most, mainly just BS.



On the new opensourcep2p network, at the moment, probably right. I doubt that there are that many users on that network anyway. [wildly speculative mode]Interestingly the graph at limewire.com does show a drop around the 20th March when Anonnn launched the idea, of around 50k users .. but I think this must be coisncidence - gnutellaforums didn't get 50k readers that day. There is already a decline evident preceding that date, I'd say about 40k users over half a week immediately before his announcement. This is followed by the sharp drop of another ~50k at 20th March, and it has been more or less stable since then.[/wildly speculative mode]

Maybe the decline of 40k users in half a week would have continued had Anonnn not made his interesting announcement? Who can say?
for what reason?
[/QUOTE
Reasons covered earlier in debate and on website.

Yes, I can download from BS using non-BS clients, it's good. On the other hand, some clients have such little success now (read '0.4') that I don't bother using them. And that was a sudden change. I think perhaps driven as much by limewire as BS the date corresponds more with the introduction of ultrapeers AFAICT. I don't really know.

So I don't know, it seems to me a good many of the older clients are blocked from the gnutella network. I think if the opensourcep2p idea isn't killed quickly that people will alter a lot of the older clients to use that network - after all the older and simpler the client is the easier it would be to change. Maybe more clients will work successfully on the opensource network than work successfully on the gnutella network.


OK, I didn't mean you specifically, I meant the gnutella community in general should at least take some comfort from the fact that we want to keep improving the (opensource) gnutella clients and protocol, even though we don't want to connect to the existing commercial clients any more.

Nos
Click to expand...
 
Feature creep is one of the main problems with commercial clients in a highly competitive field such as gnutella, where we have dozens of clients.

Each commercial vendor want to be able to say 'we have x and y and z' and also 'we were first with w!'.

Better to have well thought out features that have definite, measurable benefits.

Nos
 
> Oh btw Unregistered, the Limewire's superpeer concept is
> unnecesarry complicated in my eyes (so is the 3 step
> handshake).

Can the Ultrapeer proposal be tweaked or simplified? Certainly!

> Anything else you want to badmouth about my technical
> background? *yawn*

Nope, i've said what i've wanted.
 
I'm not yet convinced that BearShare clustering is an abuse of the network. That's what the big "if" was at the beginning of my statement. Pay attention.
 
better to not reinvent/rewrite code for each client too
would be nice to see more features and UI interface improvements than protocol enhancements
we need 30 clients with 30 different base codes for interfacing to the network, real stupid and a total (collective) waste of time
 
>Bearshare has contributed mightily
to the lowest of lows in spyware.
People had to pull his teeth to get him to put a notice and option to not install the spamware.
The people on gnutella "contributed mightily" to keeping it free.
People had to jump all over him to stop spewing his spy packets all over the network. He finally was pressured into sending them TTL 1 or 2 only.
Again, the people on gnutella fought to keep it free.
Now again the people have to put pressure on him to stop. Why does he keep doing this?

The almighty buck $$$$

New strange headers, new encrypted messages to only BS clients, what's next?

>Views like this should really be taken with a grain of salt unless they come from within the developer community itself
There are more than the_gdf group of developers. And the other group doesn't seem to like the idea of greed on Gnutella.

Greed sucks. You can bet the other $$ clients will be thinking up new stuff to make a buck off of all this. Stop them now before it gets worse.
 
You should read this post...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_gdf/message/6631

I think it explains a lot!

Morgwen

P.S.:

Somebody should explain Vinnie that Xolox is no part of this open source net...
 
Only for you? highly improbably! Without complains you still would distribute various scumware and call it Adware. You're responsible for what you do.


Of course, Limewire never had or will distribute spyware. I wonder so many websites report about spyware in Bearshare and Limewire. Of course everyone lies and Limewire is totally inocent.

How stupid do you think we are?
 
How do you expect the guy to make a buck so he can continue development? He should be able to make a buck on his work. I like the idea of a good no adware client. How do you explain how Red Hat charges when it's GPL?
 
Xolox was developed by a small dutch company named Beerenboot IT founded by four former students. Their emails never show up on any site related to Xolox, however here's how to contact them:

http://www.beerenboot.com/vennoten/midden.htm

At least Arno Steenbekkers and Michel Pasman are Xolox developers. I don't know for sure about the other two.

You might want to contact them, since they are going to release a new version of Xolox in several weeks.
 
Sorry for missing that thread - I posted the cross-link without having thoroughly read the thread (because I wanted any replies to my post to go in that thread!). I was not at all aware of that thread when I posted my query regarding eTraffic, as I don't spend much time in the limewire forum.

As you will see from my link, I got my info from a newsnet posting, and simply assumed that the info was not posted in this forum. Perhaps I was confused by the way this thread was split? I guess I missed the notice by Morgwen .. I notice a duplicate of the start of that thread is in this thread. I dunno, it's confusing.

I guess I could have searched.

Nos
 
Announcing "Moose" a new Gnutella client!

Moose looks and works just like BearShare! No need to learn anything new! No spyware, no adware. Easy to use, tabbed menus just like BearShare.
It will be priced at $15.95
It's based on Gnucleus code, modified of course.
Coming next month.

Use the Moose!
 
The other day I donated a very good TV and some other good household items to a charity in good faith that they would give it to a needy family. I talked to the guy at the counter and he assured me it would go to a good family.
Later that week I happened upon a garage sale that just happened to be this counter persons home and he was selling my TV and the other items!
Should I

A. Call a cop.
B. Report him to the charity.
C. Take it all back.
D. Kick his A..

Wouldn't you call this a 3rd party leeching off my good intentions?
 
Moak, you've stated on IRC in no uncertain terms that you will not cooperate with anyone who disagrees with you. You've shown your unwillingness to even tolerate others speech by accusing Adam of flooding when he was just responding to your attempts to demonize Limewire.

You have a lot to learn about what it means to be part of a community. If you ever plan on participating in a group you're going to find very few people who agree with you on everything, and the few you're left with will be a rather boring group at that.

If you can't learn to accept diversity then you're better off starting your own proprietary network where you get to call all the shots.

It's been made clear by you and others that opensourcep2p isn't about freedom for people on the network. It is about the attempts of an ethically challenged few to splinter gnutella. You say it's about freedom of choice when what you mean is freedom for YOU to make the choices for other people. I heard a wonderful analogy on the #gnutelladev IRC channel about this idea of freedom of choice, "you can choose any color you want, as long as that color is blue."
 
Maybe you should recall the spyware past into your memory... spreading serious scumware like Cydoor, Aureate, Ezula, and Gator and denying or not informing users.

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5022

Good luck with clustering away from your user base...
 
Afisk,
I tried to tolerate your junior companies politics for month, after all I see there is no way for me to cooperate with Limewire or Bearshare anymore. Very disappointed I have to say cooperation with you is inefficient and unethical in my honorable opinion. I will go a different way, not with GDF and maybe not even Gnutella (well let's see what about those rumours that Xolox comes back and if there is a possibility to participate and give Gnutella a push forward). I don't think I'm forking development, I think that is something you, Limewire and Vinnie can write on your card.
What happened to Limewire, you have been a positive example in many aspects?! Everything regret-worth started with spyware, lies, closer cooperation with Vinnie and finally clustering... come on Adam, don't think free developers will look at this and say "yes we help them with our knowledge and ideas". I'm sorry you didn' found any business concept, perhaps you should have spend some time on conversation and listening too others in the past, but the position you maneuvered now makes yourself very unattractive and you don't even move a little step.
About GDF and developers outside (maybe you GDF members should have look outside your own hood), there are/was Pasman (Xolox), Raphael (gtk-gnutella), GodxBlue (Peeranha), Etzi (Qtella) and Max (mutella) and more I had mail contact or meeting on IRC or here on Gnutellaforum. Some made it to the "high society" GDF, some not... those who are not saticfied with things done inside the so called GDF I would like to advice to participate here on Gnutellaforum - or build up a new Gnutella Development Community. I did set up an alternative mailinglist for interested developers, it's running for some weeks... visit IRCnet channel #gnutelladev or contact Morgwen.

Greets, Moak

PS: Morgwen/Cyclo, why not making this thread sticky?
 
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