OpenSource P2P Debate, it's about choice

New thread to talk about Ultrapeers at
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=10357
Morgwen, thanks but it's easy to just start a new thread.
Moak & Nosferatu, keep up the good work, thanks.
Adam, "They are constantly pushing us to add things like user registration, and we have repeatedly refused."
But you and the others may not always be there, and then corporate greed types will jump on the chance and we all get screwed.
I hope you can find a new, real job soon.
 
Oh now I see Mrgone's point, he is another Bearshare maniac, good to know.

Kutulus: ("download mesh" and "swarming")... this way we can have an advantage over limewire
mrgone4662: I think we already have plenty of those :-)
Kutulus: well we need more bragging rights, so those zeropaid bitches can go shut their mouths

From http://www.bearshare.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=70133
 
Originally posted by Sephiroth
>Especially since no other developer has any objections..
RAM left the_gdf and had lots of objections, others left and are too polite to say anything.

>But in the end i dont think that the majority of people are taking anyone seriously. The only thing that keeps repeating is the same unproven and really ridculeous accusations against bearshare and personal attacks against its developer.
This is not a BearShare only issue.

Blocking IPs has been done for quite some time now in most clients, no one has removed that feature and you can just about do the same thing with it manually so what is the difference?
 
@Visitor: Yes, it is ineffective, for the moment. but you must understand that the original gnutella protocol was not designed for anything like ultrapeers. this system adds ultrapeer functionality to the network and still is 100% backwards compatible, that is amazing. it will definitely become more effective as more servents implement ultrapeers. old servents were not designed for it and of course they don't support it. extending open protocols is not easy and it always needs time.
 
Blocking other users in an attempt to diminish their quality of service just so you can push your political agenda is abusing the network.

This is a free network. Meaning (in part) that each user has the right to choose whichever client they wish to use, without reprisal.

Your attempt to splinter gnutella along partisan lines is ethically reprehensible.

We share as a community without boundary. Without limits on income level, sex, race, creed, religion, or politics.
 
Yes,

but what the most people here try to explain there are other possibilities than spyware!

Nobody said its a bad thing to earn money!

Morgwen
 
I didn't explain why clustering helps?

Again, it makes such a network scale about 5 to 20 times more because you're hitting all UltraPeers at every hop along a search path. That's 5 to 20 times more files you can find. That's a huge difference. Clustering makes a better network, which is what we're all trying to do. Maybe you should implement the open UltraPeer protocol in your own client?
 
I was suggesting they sell their distribution of the binary, under the guise of the cost of support/warrentry. The problem with this plan is they have to release all the source code too.

Limewire gets away with using open source, and still charging for the "pro" version. But equally, there are the people who recomplie limewire sans ads and distribute it as clean limewire without fee.
 
You should read this thread and the others a little more.
LimeWire is using us as support, we are running Gnucleus or another profit free, open source client.
LimeWire is using my CPU cycles and I didn't choose to let you profit off of my file sharing efforts.
It takes time and money for me to share my files. I pay for a ISP, I pay for electricity, I spend time deleting spam from my files, I buy large hard drives, I mantain my system, etc...
I don't want that effort going towards your personal gain. You have no right to use my CPU & resources to profit without re-embursing me.
If you ran your own private LimeWire network then you would have to pay for that out of your own pocket.
When I share, I don't expect a third party (LimeWire corp) to make a profit from my efforts.
This is why we are blocking for profit clients.
The blocking is happening on Gnutella at the users choice, and on OpenSource P2P it's the "standard" to block them.
The more you spam/adware/spyware/cluster and a lot of other nasty things, the more people will block you on Gnutella. So you better watch how greedy you get.
Any developer making a buck like this is scum, the lowest kind. Like I said before, get a real job and quit sucking off of Gnutella.
Gnutella is not a corporate goldmine.
 
This openp2p net thing is notorious for offtopic discusions!

I splitted the thread and took out the TopMoxie discussion and moved it here:

http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10733

Morgwen
 
You did not get my point. The Bearshares are clustered together, but the bearshare cluster as a whole is still perfectly connected to the gnutella sphere. that means every XoloX client can connect to a Gnucleus or LimeWire client that is connected to Bearshare. Therefore, search packets of one of them do reach the other, and indeed, Bearshare and XoloX clients CAN download from each other.

What you are doing is a completely other thing. You do not block Bearshare. If you only did that, i wouldn't have said anything. You guys are creating a totally different network, thereby blocking every gnutella user who is not willing to join your ideological crusade. by blocking one or two clients, like vinnie does, the network as a whole stays perfectly connected. how many clients do you think you are blocking? counting all the discontinued and experimental ones, and every noncommercial client that is not opensource, i guess it will be about ten different clients. for what reason? once again, i can't see anyone abusing the network. i do suspect vinnie of doing so, but i have no final proof for that, and even if he did, he has never gone as far as splitting completely off gnutella.



they create clustered subspheres, right. but they still stay connected. and there is no proof at all that they take files away from other vendors and clients. actually, using gnucleus, i happened to download from bearshare at multiple times.


please, nos, do not tell me what i should be happy for.
 
There is a thread now for Ultrapeer posts. Ultrapeers are not a big problem, greed is.
Adam has already hinted that he can't touch the subject of greed because of his employer and that is understandable.
Greed restricts him too. We won't be debating that issue with him and that is why you all think no one is listening to each other.
Gnucleus has ultrapeer code in it if you get the latest CVS version, it works pretty good and seems to be compatible with the LimeWire system, more testing needs to be done.
BearShare 2.5 shoves ads in your face on the search list screen. It still spies on you, spy packets everywhere. Block it!

and a new block string to add: MorpheusPE MRPH

Gnutella without SPAM!
 
> I see no technical need to do a clustering of superpeers

It's common sense

> I thougt superpeers are designed to help also normal clients
> e.g. to shield the weakest members (modem users).

That is only one benefit of Ultrapeers, but you can do much more with Ultrapeer technology. Not only can you shield modem users from heavy traffic, but by clustering Ultrapeers together, you can increase the search horizon of all Ultrapeers and the clients connected to them.

This will make the end users happier, as they will more likely be able to find the file they want in their larger horizon. Isn't that important to you Moak? That the users of gnutella clients are satisfied with the results the receive?

*Note: Adam Fisk already posted a picture illustrating how Ultrapeer clustering achieves a higher horizon.
 
Let me point out that our "query-mesh" proposal (see GDF paper) allows the ENTIRE gnutella network to be searched given sufficient time. Once this is adopted, clustering becomes a non-issue (since every node can be reached).
 
Hi,
I want to repost some of my posts from the older but flooded thread, a summary:

What's happening?
We had many threads here on Gnutellaforums about Bearshare is abusing Gnutella. Is it true? I'm pretty sure you haven't seen any non-commercial client comming with loud marketing, ads, spyware, proprietary extensions, clustering, blocking or disadvantaging other clients, trying to control and takeover a big market share. Only commercial clients do as far as I know, only Bearshare and Limewire do (okay and Morpheus comes with Spyware too).

Not enough, Vinnie (Bearshare programmer) is turning Gnutella now into a proprietary BS network since months (proprietary Gnutella packages, proprietary v0.6 headers, clustering BS clients, prefering BS clients, changing host caches without notice, blocking v0.4 clients without technical reasons, e.g. Xolox). Vinnie also had this older idea of blocking a client and still download from it (after complains he dropped this idea). Ask a Gnutella developer if something technical is not understood or not true in your eyes, they will confirm it. Also Vinnie is taking knowledge from the so called GDF, but new features have been implemented closed for others, without giving back something equivalent.

Any doubts about the given information, those are not facts? Please explain and prove Vinnie is NOT clustering/blocking and NOT destroying, plundering free Gnutella and that the little guys will NOT have fewer connections.

This "sectioning/seperating/clustering" of Bearshare (and Limewire) are only beautiful words: As a matter of fact it is a kind of blocking, it looks different but has 90% the same effect as blocking. It's the first step to a full proprietary Bearshare network, loosly based on Gnutella protocol. Just wait some months, Vinnie will introduce more features to increase his control IMHO, now that he managed the first step (and nearly nobody complained). Oh and don't believe those rumours clustering improves the network, how does a monoculture instead of a common improved Gnutella protocol bring advantages? Also wanna have a one vendor internet (e.g. AOL), instead of the world wide web and it's reliable HTTP protocol plus a variety of clients? Sure, Bearshare is a nice client, but this doesn't mean it should control Gnutella... perhaps you recognized there are better clients or clients which brought new features into Gnutella.
Congratulations developers, you gave Vinnie a free card for plundering and splitting Gnutella. Limewire are best friends to Bearshare, build a kind of busines alliance and defend each other. Didn't I hear voices when one vendor starts blocking others, he will be kicked out of the community?

What to do now?
Well, I tolerated Bearshare/Limewire selfish commercial politics, helping newcomers and developers.... for months. After all I don't believe in it anymore... and I have enough! It seems Vinnie's agressive politics has won. He turned the face of Gnutella for ever! *sigh*
Think about it. Gnutella was an open protocol for everyone with a variety of equal client, but this ended on March 2002. What we have today? We have a BS network, a LW network, a Gnutella clients network arround. Some of the other clients and users will be sucked into spyware paid BS/LW network in future (with lots of loud marketing).... or.... the remaining users regroup into something that is not BS/LW controlled. I see no advantage for the users in a Gnutella monoculture. Do you prefer a proprietary 'Bearshare network' or 'Gnutella'?

My advice: For the sake of Gnutella do not cooperate or support Bearshare/Limewire anymore!
Choose a better client (Windows, Linux, more on Zeropaid). Stay informed and do not believe in propaganda.

The OpenP2P network (intoduced from Anonnn) maybe one alternative. Seperating from BS in a matter of defense, I won't feed Vinnie's BS network with my files anymore. I'm sorry to say... Vinnie started to block other clients, now he should be prepared to get blocked in return from these clients he disadvantages. He can not abuse others for his Bearshare network and expect this lasts forever.
The better idea: Vinnie should have the honour and the truth and let Gnutella alone. Call his network 'Bearshare network' and does not touch free Gnutella anymore (but honestly he needs the Gnutella userbase and first wanna grab a bigger userbase and then take them away + he uses the knowledge/ideas of the other GDF developers to improve his client IMHO). If Bearshare leaves it would be also healthy for Gnutella, I see currently no client that has such heavy freeloading support as Bearshare has (and we know busy slots are the biggest pain on Gnutella still). If he leaves Gnutella development could be friendly, efficient and free again. *dreaming*
A revolutionary idea: Bearshare and Limewire agree to stop all proprietray network/protocol extensions and willing to cooperate democratic with all developers, to improve Gnutella with combined force.
Another alternative is further developing Gnutella protocol alone and make sure no commercial abuse is possible (e.g we had my Gnutella v0.7 proposal and GodxBlue's GNUXP which I like most of all).

What's wrong?
Please understand we are only "defending" Gnutella, that's what fairness contains. I'm sorry too, please complain at Vinnie's table. Fight the cause not the symptoms: Bearshare and Limewire want to be treated as fair Gnutella clients, okay, then Vinnie/Mark has to follow a simple rule and treat other clients equal again. Gnutella is not a two class community where some are master and all others are minors. Before you ask, the problem is not closed sourced software or making money with a protocol. I like money too. :-) The problem is the unacceptable politics of some vendors which would like to control other (as described above) and some of us will not contribute rescources and knowledge to the benefit of a single/two vendor network.

My idea of a Gnutella network is different, fair, friendly, efficient and in peacefull cooperation, where the benefit of a better network will be for every client. Which means more files and a better technology for you!

Greets, Moak

PS: Moderators, could you please protect this thread from too much flooding? :-) Perhaps move repeated flooding into another thread?
 
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