Olympic torch through London et al
- Thread starter k.beebe
- Start date
no, im agreeing that the world has thugs, the protesters in my opinion did what they set out to do, disrupt and spoil. maybe we should agree to disagree before i set the thugs on you.
illinoismommy
New member
But I thought you wanted free trade and not sanctions, because that would increase wealth and improve everyone's lives? How do you show a country you're serious unless you actually impose sanctions on them? And since that is unlikely to happen I think it's probably down to individuals to start boycotting Chinese goods. A singer at that rally I was at used the lyrics 'there is no government, there's just us...there's just us'. To a point I think he's right.
In the last 50 years there have still been a generation that remember what it's like to be Tibetan. All it takes is for a couple of generations to be opressed to start the process of wiping out an identity.
Like I said, they already are dependent on trade. The problem is, the rest of the world is dependent on trade with them too......at least the governments are. There are already agitators and dissenters, but they're being crushed. They already expect more but it makes no difference. You've seen what happened in Britain, the more comfortable people get the less they care about politics because there's less to gain from it. The more comfortable China gets financially the less likely it is to change.]
It's not going to gain its independence by us trading with China. It can either be poorer and freer or richer and more opressed as far as I can see of the situation.
Some of the people who spoke at that rally...people who had never even been on Tibetan soil but called themselves Tibetan, would go back tomorrow and rebuild the country if they could, poverty or not.
In the last 50 years there have still been a generation that remember what it's like to be Tibetan. All it takes is for a couple of generations to be opressed to start the process of wiping out an identity.
Like I said, they already are dependent on trade. The problem is, the rest of the world is dependent on trade with them too......at least the governments are. There are already agitators and dissenters, but they're being crushed. They already expect more but it makes no difference. You've seen what happened in Britain, the more comfortable people get the less they care about politics because there's less to gain from it. The more comfortable China gets financially the less likely it is to change.]
It's not going to gain its independence by us trading with China. It can either be poorer and freer or richer and more opressed as far as I can see of the situation.
Some of the people who spoke at that rally...people who had never even been on Tibetan soil but called themselves Tibetan, would go back tomorrow and rebuild the country if they could, poverty or not.
dudemanman
New member
:naughty:
fishtacos.
New member
Ah! Learning is it... why didn't you say... I could have helped you there...
Here you go, this is a good place to start to learn about China and it's human rights actions/abuses...
Of course it's probably no where near as entertaining as watching thugs challenge Officers of law enforcement, but I'm confident of it's educational value.
Leswonder!
New member
They have had a hell of a lot of practice. That torch never really stood a chance.
what are you so angry about?
the London & Paris protests succeeded? who cares?
it would have been nice if those two days werent ruined by protests i agree,
but china assumed the police could control them, the police failed today in paris 3 times the torch was extinguished, yesterday in london the police also failed to keep the protesters under control.
i dunno what news you've been watching?
the London & Paris protests succeeded? who cares?
it would have been nice if those two days werent ruined by protests i agree,
but china assumed the police could control them, the police failed today in paris 3 times the torch was extinguished, yesterday in london the police also failed to keep the protesters under control.
i dunno what news you've been watching?
i don't think you understand protests then, the more you protest about things, the more people take notice, the more you can get things changed.
maybe you should look up the meaning of protesting in the dictionary, then decide if the protesters or the olympic torch carriers have had the worst publicity over the last two days.
maybe you should look up the meaning of protesting in the dictionary, then decide if the protesters or the olympic torch carriers have had the worst publicity over the last two days.
GRIMREAPER75
New member
OR
Accept that the Chinese have a right to Tibet and that the Tibetans claims to be an independent state are false ? Ignore the Tibetan situation and allow them to sort it out for themselves ? Stop telling every other country how they can act (based entirely upon our own view of what is acceptable) ? Start acting as a nation state that recognises the rights of other nation states ?
Well we must try an balance the debate Les.
Sorry but I don't see what's so funny about attacking people carrying a symbol of the Olympic ideal. They're not attacking China, they're attacking the torch oblivious of what that torch is meant to represent. They had a chance to use what that torch represents to say something to China and stupidly they've thrown it away by behaving like thugs.
Instead they end up looking like people who don't get the ideals of the event, or who disagree with those ideals... and if I were Chinese I'd be pleased about that... because the discussion has to become about their behaviour instead about the behaviour of the state of China.
Instead they end up looking like people who don't get the ideals of the event, or who disagree with those ideals... and if I were Chinese I'd be pleased about that... because the discussion has to become about their behaviour instead about the behaviour of the state of China.
elephantaura
New member
Sorry angry :blink: Where was that then ?
I just said I couldn't see that the thuggery did the actual cause any good.
I just said I couldn't see that the thuggery did the actual cause any good.
italian_singer_1989
New member
You should write a list of stuff you can argue with, like.
It should have bullet points and stuff, 'cos those are nice.
:glag:
Stick up for ur mates
New member
I'm sure the nutters in our society will take great heart from your willingness to dismiss a man assaulting a woman on the streets of Britain, and may all women feel safe in the knowledge that when someone assaults them and takes or attempts to take something from them they can always say well some woman was attacked in a worse way than me, so it's alright for me to be attacked like this can't they ?
I'm not sure 'the nutters in society' all read FST so prolly not.
See what this boils down to is the ridiculous way some people like to exaggerate very mild events to prove a point. Like the way people often compare modern Western leaders to Hitler. Which I know you hate.
z3r0xisxn0txh3r0
New member
in the west we believe in freedom of speech and human rights, china had to cut the live news feeds to hide the truth from its people. nobody behaved like thugs, the protesters did everything they could to throw a spanner in the works, and they succeeded.
We could do that although the claim does not look desperately strong on paper. It seems to be based on the fact that the Mongols conquered both Tibet and China in the 13th century and that the Chinese see themselves as successors to that Empire. Prior to that Tibet was pretty much separate - in fact in the 7th to 9th centuries bits of Western China were subject to the Tibetan Empire.
Equally we could let them sort it out themselves but as there are only a few million Tibetans and a billion Chinese that doesn't seem much of a starter to get anywhere.
Was the invasion in 1950 legitimate? If not then perhaps international law is Tibet's best recourse. As a co-signatory we are duty bound to uphold their rights under international law. However, although appropriate nods have been given towards such rights the World continues to actively deal with China despite questionable activity in Tibet, Burma and Sudan. I am realistic about this though. Money buys the law and the Chinese are very rich these days and own a lot of Western debt. We aren't going to rock any political boats even if it does stick in our craws.
Personally, I think the best the Tibetans can hope for is a return of their Lama and more religious and cultural freedoms. Tibet is China's launching platform for its IBMs - it is not going anywhere.
Equally we could let them sort it out themselves but as there are only a few million Tibetans and a billion Chinese that doesn't seem much of a starter to get anywhere.
Was the invasion in 1950 legitimate? If not then perhaps international law is Tibet's best recourse. As a co-signatory we are duty bound to uphold their rights under international law. However, although appropriate nods have been given towards such rights the World continues to actively deal with China despite questionable activity in Tibet, Burma and Sudan. I am realistic about this though. Money buys the law and the Chinese are very rich these days and own a lot of Western debt. We aren't going to rock any political boats even if it does stick in our craws.
Personally, I think the best the Tibetans can hope for is a return of their Lama and more religious and cultural freedoms. Tibet is China's launching platform for its IBMs - it is not going anywhere.
lightandtruth
New member
How could you think such a thing of me Les :shifty:
irishmom91562
New member
Sanctions or the threat of sanctions will have a greater effect if we allow them to become more dependent on trade first... and for that to happen the distribution of wealth within China needs time to develop.
I have to disagree, I accept that my predictions are long term, and that there are many uncertainties in the way they will pan out, like the security question... but ultimately Communism cannot survive against the people... I also understand many would like a quick fix, but that's just not going to happen.
Stalin virtually eradicated the Georgians, and they and their culture were repressed for more than 70 years... they're still Georgian today... in fact it would seem that no repressive regime has ever been able to completely wipe out a culture, even some of the Mayan culture survives to this day... and Cortez really did for them.
I think you have to accept that wealth is a comparative thing, whilst people are becoming wealthy political change is forced as a direct consequence of that wealth generation and distribution. This holds true for all societies so far, that's how we have ended up with unions and workers rights... a path China has still to walk, and one that will become harder to resist for the regime as the expectations of the people are raised in line with their living conditions and relative personal wealth... by trading with them we cause that personal wealth to increase for the population, thereby increasing the distribution of that wealth and causing the expectations of the population to rise. Yeah that takes a long time... but this is the Chinese we are talking about and they like long games.
I have to disagree, I accept that my predictions are long term, and that there are many uncertainties in the way they will pan out, like the security question... but ultimately Communism cannot survive against the people... I also understand many would like a quick fix, but that's just not going to happen.
| thE-paK araB roCker|
New member
MG, if it wasn't for Squeams and Les (and pwning Allen), you'd be bored to fuck around here.
Ever think about joining in with the craic?
You might just enjoy yourself.
Ever think about joining in with the craic?
You might just enjoy yourself.
You're being unfair now, squeamous. I just watched it, and he nearly touched her, you know.
:lol:
Well you know, those goons surrounding her were Chinese secret police, and they did spend all day pushing around the organisers and met police, so that protestor never stood a chance.
I wonder how MG feels about these people walking our streets?