Is invite trading really that bad?
- Thread starter JEA
- Start date
lindseyp1977
New member
so you're talking about nice guys who are too greedy to give invite to another good guy... they need something in return
come on, the only legit (in all means) trade may be between two friends. But then it cannot be even called trade, in my opinion.
come on, the only legit (in all means) trade may be between two friends. But then it cannot be even called trade, in my opinion.
Quoted from backie's blog (but not written by backie afaik)
Felt this needed to by copy pasta'd onto FST, because there wasn't enough intelligent discussion going on at the source.
"
Lets say you have five monkeys in a cage. You put a banana in the cage, and everytime a monkey tries to get it you spray them all with a hose. Eventually these 5 monkeys understand what’s up and don’t try to get the banana. Now lets say you replace one of the five monkeys with a new monkey. The new monkey goes to get the banana and the other four monkeys attack it. The monkey tries again with the same result, and eventually the new monkey gives up. Now lets say you replace a second monkey. The new monkey tries to get the banana, and all the other monkeys attack it, including the monkey that was aded previously. Lets say that you do this 3 more times, so none of the original monkeys are there. All these monkeys don’t go for the banana because they were attacked when they tried. But do they know why they were attacked? No. They have never seen the hose that the original monkeys were sprayed with, and yet they will attack any monkey that tries to get the banana. This is the
situation with trading tracker invites today. Most people have long forgotten the original reason trading was forbidden, which was in fact to protect the tracker from security threats. But trading is one of the more secure ways to let someone into a tracker, because both the invites being given need to be on the same “level”. With giving away invites, this is not the case. All you need to do to get into a higher level tracker is give away five or 6 invites to FTS or some other shitty tracker and BOOM; you have access to SCC, GFT and more. Giving away invites is based on the exact same principal as trading, except that is much easier to move up to more elite trackers. When you trade invites, there is also a certain level of trust involved. You don’t go around trading invites with a complete stranger for fear of being jipped. You usually know the person you are trading invites with, whether it be in real life or on a forum. With giving away invites, you give the invite to
whoever has the most “reps”. But the thing is these reps could have been given because the person gave away a bitshock invite. You just don’t know. I think the bittorrent world needs to ask itself, “Is trading really that bad?”.
"
__________________________________________________
Starting of TSOL's opinion:
I can sort of relate with some of the concepts in this person's thoughts, but I do believe he is glorifying and oversimplifying trading. I've traded/scammed just for kicks wayyy back before really knowing anything about this scene (Mudd revoked my invite privs at A-L once upon a time, but let me stay on board, good man
) and from what I understand there isn't really much trust among traders. Some are decent folk with lives, some have interesting persona's, some want buffered accounts because their pipes are shite, but for the most part they are just moronic people caught up in chasing illusions. In other words, they are the same kind of people who today are 'anti-trade' invite givers.
I have about as much faith in those past traders as I do in today's non-traders; the traders who were interesting and personable to today's non-trader equivalents; sketchy traders to today's anonymous anti-traders, or users who throw invites around like spare change. As far as tracker security, I wouldn't let my web of trust stretch further than people I know first-hand. I would not put complete trust in invitees, and therefore no tracker is truly secure in my eyes. Chances are your site will go down when some shitty ex-staff member decides to stab you in the back for personal differences, or when your database will fuck itself over the one time you were too lazy to make backups. Aka your site will die well before the feds decide to come in and seize your servers.
Despite all this, I feel trading has fallen apart so much since back in '07 when it was a norm, at least from what I have been witnessing here on FST, that it is not realistic to ever expect any sort of resurgence in trading. This is mostly because you'd have to be a complete idiot to even contemplate trading unless you are oblivious to the current state of bt politics. In my opinion invite giveaways aren't much of an improvement from past trading norms, but they are not a step backwards either as the original quote seems to allude. Trader's have successfully become a scapegoat for private tracker woes, for better or for worse.
afterthought: Would be nice to get a couple tracker staffer opinions in here, especially those that have been around for some good amount of time. I lack that sort of perspective, and my vantage point is probably missing elements theirs would have had.
Felt this needed to by copy pasta'd onto FST, because there wasn't enough intelligent discussion going on at the source.
"
Lets say you have five monkeys in a cage. You put a banana in the cage, and everytime a monkey tries to get it you spray them all with a hose. Eventually these 5 monkeys understand what’s up and don’t try to get the banana. Now lets say you replace one of the five monkeys with a new monkey. The new monkey goes to get the banana and the other four monkeys attack it. The monkey tries again with the same result, and eventually the new monkey gives up. Now lets say you replace a second monkey. The new monkey tries to get the banana, and all the other monkeys attack it, including the monkey that was aded previously. Lets say that you do this 3 more times, so none of the original monkeys are there. All these monkeys don’t go for the banana because they were attacked when they tried. But do they know why they were attacked? No. They have never seen the hose that the original monkeys were sprayed with, and yet they will attack any monkey that tries to get the banana. This is the
situation with trading tracker invites today. Most people have long forgotten the original reason trading was forbidden, which was in fact to protect the tracker from security threats. But trading is one of the more secure ways to let someone into a tracker, because both the invites being given need to be on the same “level”. With giving away invites, this is not the case. All you need to do to get into a higher level tracker is give away five or 6 invites to FTS or some other shitty tracker and BOOM; you have access to SCC, GFT and more. Giving away invites is based on the exact same principal as trading, except that is much easier to move up to more elite trackers. When you trade invites, there is also a certain level of trust involved. You don’t go around trading invites with a complete stranger for fear of being jipped. You usually know the person you are trading invites with, whether it be in real life or on a forum. With giving away invites, you give the invite to
whoever has the most “reps”. But the thing is these reps could have been given because the person gave away a bitshock invite. You just don’t know. I think the bittorrent world needs to ask itself, “Is trading really that bad?”.
"
__________________________________________________
Starting of TSOL's opinion:
I can sort of relate with some of the concepts in this person's thoughts, but I do believe he is glorifying and oversimplifying trading. I've traded/scammed just for kicks wayyy back before really knowing anything about this scene (Mudd revoked my invite privs at A-L once upon a time, but let me stay on board, good man
) and from what I understand there isn't really much trust among traders. Some are decent folk with lives, some have interesting persona's, some want buffered accounts because their pipes are shite, but for the most part they are just moronic people caught up in chasing illusions. In other words, they are the same kind of people who today are 'anti-trade' invite givers.I have about as much faith in those past traders as I do in today's non-traders; the traders who were interesting and personable to today's non-trader equivalents; sketchy traders to today's anonymous anti-traders, or users who throw invites around like spare change. As far as tracker security, I wouldn't let my web of trust stretch further than people I know first-hand. I would not put complete trust in invitees, and therefore no tracker is truly secure in my eyes. Chances are your site will go down when some shitty ex-staff member decides to stab you in the back for personal differences, or when your database will fuck itself over the one time you were too lazy to make backups. Aka your site will die well before the feds decide to come in and seize your servers.
Despite all this, I feel trading has fallen apart so much since back in '07 when it was a norm, at least from what I have been witnessing here on FST, that it is not realistic to ever expect any sort of resurgence in trading. This is mostly because you'd have to be a complete idiot to even contemplate trading unless you are oblivious to the current state of bt politics. In my opinion invite giveaways aren't much of an improvement from past trading norms, but they are not a step backwards either as the original quote seems to allude. Trader's have successfully become a scapegoat for private tracker woes, for better or for worse.
afterthought: Would be nice to get a couple tracker staffer opinions in here, especially those that have been around for some good amount of time. I lack that sort of perspective, and my vantage point is probably missing elements theirs would have had.
All FST trolls with 100+ accounts should be banned, also.
IzzySparkle
New member
Come back and patronize me some more later, at least my post had an argument better than "LOL KIDDIE PORN SWAP". And I think BREIN might have something to say about the second bit.
Then again, traders tend to view things as typing more than a handful of words as "too much work", so it's not surprising that those who post on forums (other than trade offers) and use IRC are seen as kissasses. By the way dude, you're a total badass for trading that demonoid invite. I kinda want to be you.
Funny, people manage to follow the board rules here without it being considered "kissing ass". As I already said, the people concerned with kissing ass are the same people still hung up on the stupid WTAW thing. And from what I've seen, the asskissing generally has the opposite of the intended effect. I certainly never feel the urge to invite some grovelling sycophant to some "1337 tracker".
Then again, traders tend to view things as typing more than a handful of words as "too much work", so it's not surprising that those who post on forums (other than trade offers) and use IRC are seen as kissasses. By the way dude, you're a total badass for trading that demonoid invite. I kinda want to be you.
False. I believe every single person that says they traded with the impression that it was the right thing to do (oblivious to the truth, as you would say). The problem is the BT world is huge, and someone fresh off the bench from public trackers googling "FTN invite" will probably end up on a trading board and see hundreds of people carrying out the deed in broad daylight (in retrospect). It would be naive to assume that everyone who trades knows it's wrong, just as it would be naive to assume that people trade for as few reasons as people list often. I'm sure exclusivity and sharing aren't the only reasons; but more sinister ones like it becoming a hobby, or their will to aggravate some staffer somewhere also play a part.
Trading is bad because most of the time it's done for the wrong reasons, and will probably end with the wrong people (people banned twice or thrice before) getting back on the tracker and ruining the experience for a different torrenter, yet again. Fact is, according to all the reading I've done, and all I've had to hear from different people, that seems to be the most dominant logical reasoning; people consider trading acceptable but the people associated with it usually have their hands in even more dirt, which can never be a good thing (invite selling/cheating etc.). That's what I reason with, instead of deluded illusions of helping an undercover FBI agent get on my favorite tracker on the other side of the internet pipes.
That's just my opinion, though, and I don't have the "experience" you might be looking for.
Vladimir Lenin
New member
I have thought about this thread for a while. And honestly, when I came here, I came here to trade. Not because I have no social skills or because I don't care about the sites I'm on, but because to me it seemed, there was no other option. Mind you this was back in 2007. Somehow by the posts I made here, I was liked by some people, who didn't trade. I didn't get my invite to where I wanted (that came later almost by accident) but I got to know lots of great people in filesharing. Since then it turned to shit, but it used to be great and relaxed. Mostly because of narrow minded staff on sites I'm sad to say.
Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with good or bad. except the good get put in the same group as the bad.
We have the people who trade the invites/accounts with just anyone = Yes IMO they are bad, because they invite just anyone, whether the already banned cheater, people who have no place there, even the ones who collect IPs etc.
We have the people who sell their invites, which IMO is just as low as it gets
We have the ones with zero social skills, or time, who use the WIAW to slowly get up the ladder and get into the sites the want. IMO also bad, because usually they don't care who they invite/give accounts to
We have the ones who just trade for the sake of trading, yeah they are here too. I spoke to one, whos mission was to him and his friend have three accounts on every tracker i.e. two people but still wanted three accounts
Now it gets grey
We have the ones with no too good social skills, who e.g. are on a music site and have invites. They really love the site, but still they would love some nice movie site as well.
We have the ones, like me, who know exactly what they want. And they give up with no other option than a trade (I never traded in my life, but if things turned out different, who knows)
We have the online friends/acquaintances who invite each other to their "home"
We have closed invite only :lol: invite forums, where the members support each other... well here I don't know
Bumrocks said it pretty well. We have the good traders, who exchange their sites with other likeminded people i.e. a movie site invite for a music siteinvite. Both will be used.
But on the other hand tracker staff don't have a choice with all the assholes out there.
Honestly I don't think it has anything to do with good or bad. except the good get put in the same group as the bad.
We have the people who trade the invites/accounts with just anyone = Yes IMO they are bad, because they invite just anyone, whether the already banned cheater, people who have no place there, even the ones who collect IPs etc.
We have the people who sell their invites, which IMO is just as low as it gets
We have the ones with zero social skills, or time, who use the WIAW to slowly get up the ladder and get into the sites the want. IMO also bad, because usually they don't care who they invite/give accounts to
We have the ones who just trade for the sake of trading, yeah they are here too. I spoke to one, whos mission was to him and his friend have three accounts on every tracker i.e. two people but still wanted three accounts
Now it gets grey
We have the ones with no too good social skills, who e.g. are on a music site and have invites. They really love the site, but still they would love some nice movie site as well.
We have the ones, like me, who know exactly what they want. And they give up with no other option than a trade (I never traded in my life, but if things turned out different, who knows)
We have the online friends/acquaintances who invite each other to their "home"
We have closed invite only :lol: invite forums, where the members support each other... well here I don't know
Bumrocks said it pretty well. We have the good traders, who exchange their sites with other likeminded people i.e. a movie site invite for a music siteinvite. Both will be used.
But on the other hand tracker staff don't have a choice with all the assholes out there.
Guinea Saurus Rex
New member
Just like your Moral BS,is it?Not everything can be perfectly explained in a clear black and white statement.Or do you think everything is as straightforward and can be put down and explained to the very minute of details?
And about that picture,I replied it in #62
Good job on reading what I wrote.ca_aok said:
Then again,you were not going to read or gonna listen.Not surprised.AbyBeats said:
And about that picture,I replied it in #62
Suppose if in the real world as well,If people had the means of replicating the exact copies of Books or the products they buy in large scale,what would have been the state?AbyBeats said:
And you are someone who uses petty excuses to make yourself believe what you are doing is correct and also accepts you are breaking rules and at the same time throws tantrums about Morality at others.Another hypocrite(?)ca_aok said:
C
Callum J
Guest
I have no moral problems pirating things. I haven't actually deprived anyone of anything except an imaginary sale. And oddly enough, I often discover something via piracy that actually encourages me to go out and buy the physical product. I had at last count ~350 CDs and 60 LPs, which is a hell of a lot more than most people I know who pirate less than I do. I pay for cable, but I'd rather not rely on syndication to dictate whether I can rewatch an episode or movie. I'd feel much worse taking a candy bar from the convenience store down the street.
Maybe from a cynical viewpoint. I don't suck up to people for invites, which is what passes for socializing in the torrenting world these days.
2) Condoms
Maybe from a cynical viewpoint. I don't suck up to people for invites, which is what passes for socializing in the torrenting world these days.
1) GatoradeIdolEyes787 said:Lucky him .Usually all I get from it is a hangover and the occasional STD.
2) Condoms
Bored dude
New member
Back to invite trading. I do not trade invites or anything like that because it is shady(scams,global bans,etc), and I made promises that I do not intend to break out of respect for certain people.
little_miss_sunshine_1234
New member
The problem with the current situation is that getting into most of the "better" trackers is totally dependent on who you know , as abundantly evidenced by all the cloned idiots on most of these sites , and not what you know or how much you care about actually being a member there.
If more sites were to go the way on open applications maybe it would help , at least a little , in solving some of the problems.
Of course then other than clearly definable niche trackers ,applications would probably just come down to proving that you have such and such uploaded on other sites:dabs: so I guess that wouldn't really be any better would it?
Obviously the only certain and lasting solution would be to make everything "non-exclusive" but that's Socialist talk and obviously not in line with the whole principle behind the internet.:mellow:
If more sites were to go the way on open applications maybe it would help , at least a little , in solving some of the problems.
Of course then other than clearly definable niche trackers ,applications would probably just come down to proving that you have such and such uploaded on other sites:dabs: so I guess that wouldn't really be any better would it?
Obviously the only certain and lasting solution would be to make everything "non-exclusive" but that's Socialist talk and obviously not in line with the whole principle behind the internet.:mellow:
I don't have any problem with trading. It's just a matter of opinion. The reason I don't trade is because I want to follow the rules of the trackers that I like. I don't think transgressing upon those rules would make me a bad person; I just know that it would get me disabled for breach of the rules that I accept when I join such a tracker. Trading is a bit dishonest, though. If you join a tracker, you basically accept the rules of said tracker. If you do not wish to accept them, you leave the tracker. If you do accept them, and then you trade, I think that would speak to your character. That has nothing to do with the concept of trading; rather, with the rules of a website in general.
volcom61913
New member
Yeah, trading is bad. What else is a tracker supposed to say? Everyone know trading is going on and we all give out invites to strangers on the internet, and it's no hiding that. But a tracker can't afford to have that policy. Ofcourse new blood is better than a incestious tracker, but they have to be smart about how they let in new people and get rid of others. So I guess the rules are there to be broken.
I have gotten invites in thanks for giveaways via PM (not on this forum, you cheaps). And I don't feel bad about it. Is it trading? Technically it is. Did it get trusted users into new sites? Yes it did.
There is a thin line. Follow it and you'll be alright.
I have gotten invites in thanks for giveaways via PM (not on this forum, you cheaps). And I don't feel bad about it. Is it trading? Technically it is. Did it get trusted users into new sites? Yes it did.
There is a thin line. Follow it and you'll be alright.
Bullshit, what you basically are saying is that trackers needs traders.They wont do much shit there,eventually fake a great ratio to get invites and continue trading to get more and more high level trackers.
bert2730emt
New member
Yes, this subject is like beating a dead horse...But here I go.
There is only one kind of trader that really bothers me. The one that never stops trading and that trades to simply try and get away with it. I think it is a game for them. The game goes both ways since I was one of those that enjoyed outsmarting them at their game. But I tired of it. Maybe because, as it has been mentioned, it will never go away and I have better things to do.
If you have no personable skills, are lazy, or any number of other reason I can somewhat understand why you might trade to get somewhere that you really want to be at and use. In theory, if you were one of these people I can't see why you would ever need to make more than 10, or so, trades ever. Unfortunately, it seems many get addicted to trading or the power trip of besting a site. Whatever reason it is, the ones that never stop are the problem people cause they really could give two shits about sites.
My oxymoron for the day...
There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).
There is only one kind of trader that really bothers me. The one that never stops trading and that trades to simply try and get away with it. I think it is a game for them. The game goes both ways since I was one of those that enjoyed outsmarting them at their game. But I tired of it. Maybe because, as it has been mentioned, it will never go away and I have better things to do.
If you have no personable skills, are lazy, or any number of other reason I can somewhat understand why you might trade to get somewhere that you really want to be at and use. In theory, if you were one of these people I can't see why you would ever need to make more than 10, or so, trades ever. Unfortunately, it seems many get addicted to trading or the power trip of besting a site. Whatever reason it is, the ones that never stop are the problem people cause they really could give two shits about sites.
My oxymoron for the day...
There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).
Sakimonkey
New member
Now here's somebody who takes his torrenting a little bit too seriously,you provide so much to shit on that I don't even know where to start.When preparing a list of scum in BT though,it's strongly advised you start with p2pg and some of the people who run these closed BT/possibly kiddie porn swapping forums.The author of that grossly oversimplifies things and it's clear that he's trying to bolster his own view by making silly statements. LOL@ traders being "trusted", I can't imagine a system where there's less trust in place. As a general rule you won't know each other, you should both be paranoid that the other guy is actually a staffer baiting you, etc.
The problem isn't so much the whole RIAA/MPAA thing, that's just what people spew out when they have no clue what the real issues are. The problem is that most traders are generally, for lack of a better word, scum. I see trading as the "gateway drug" of the torrenting world. It starts with a simple one time deal for a site you want. Maybe you treasure that account and use it well. Whatever, it was a means to an end. However, it often doesn't stop there. You start realizing that you can't be assed to do things the normal way, I mean, why bother asking for invites when you can just trade yours away. So you start trading more and more. Eventually you've made so many trades and lost so many of your accounts that it's no longer about just getting into that one unobtainable site, it's about spitting in the face of tracker staff, trading for a "buffered account" and then hit and running a place bone dry, etc. Soon enough, if you're cutting corners here, why not throw the rest of the rules out the window? Might as well start selling invites since the torrent sites themselves aren't doing much for you. This is especially great when they donate for invites, sell them, then claim the cash back from paypal and get your account frozen. Hell, might as well start cheating too, you probably have multiple accounts and you need a way to buffer them fast so they're worth more. Eventually it all becomes a game, and you probably don't even torrent much anymore.
Soon you degrade from a simple one-time trader into a scumbag that's a collector, trader, seller, cheater, all rolled into one. And you've forgotten why you even started trading in the first place.
And say what you will, the WTAW/WTO is a huge part of the problem. The reason many people trade is because of the "rarity levels", since they're under some delusion that the high level trackers are the best (and for trade value, they are). Without that stupid shit, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. If there was some other 0-day site like FTN with a comparable number of members, but wasn't on that list, it really wouldn't have many problems from traders.
Public giveaways are just as bad, especially when it's for rep points to bolster your trading power here or try and get an invite to a "high level site" here.
Rules are in place at private trackers for the betterment of the site, swarms, and the community. If you don't want to follow them, just fuck off to public trackers or newsgroups or something, where it's irrelevant and you can leech to your heart's content. Traders love to talk about how difficult invites are to acquire, and yet the entire reason it's difficult for them to get invites is because no one knows who they are. As a trader, you spend your time living in the shadows. You hide behind proxies, have to use different browsers for different sites, have a million emails to keep track of, you have to avoid the forums/IRC because anything that might draw staff eyes to your profile is a danger, and you constantly change your nick. The end result of this is no one has any basis on which to get to know you or trust you. Additionally, they come here and get "Trader Rep" and then expect people to bend over backwards in a giveaway for them, so that they can then trade that account down the road when something "rarer" comes along? Well fuck them.
If I might echo the response of one of the last commentators, join What, through the interview if necessary, hit power user, you now have invites to all the sites you reasonably need. You don't need to worry about all this bullshit, and you'll be happier for it. Unless you're looking for unlimited invites to those "high level trackers", you'll be able to find whatever you need.
I think you need to rethink how you approach BT,try looking at it the way you do the spam folder in your email account.
100% of torrent sites that have closed thus far aren't there because of idiot staffers not traders.Perhaps you should clarify that 'traders are banned not because they trade but because they are scum' part otherwise you need to produce this scummeter that you are using so we all can see it.
fears none but God
New member
And the problem with you is that you think you arent stealing,how naive.The famous argument "Copying files is not theft" is horseshit really and everyone knows it as well.People are comparing two different systems on the same level.In real world copying may not be a big deal because there is no loss to the creator but when a digital file gets copied,it deprives the creators the money they deserve for the work they did.They are not "working" for free now are they?Its kinda lame read but since you are in denial phase,pondering on these things is really nice.Its for that reason copyright laws are enforced and it becomes a crime to break it.But unlike you here,I know very well of what I am doing instead of pretending that I am doing nothing wrong.
Now who was the one saying trading/cheating is morally wrong,was it me?I never said I followed moral principles but I sure well understand the concept of morality.When you argue rules built around an "illegal" system is morally correct,it reeks of stupidity ain't it?But then again you think what you do is not illegal,like psychos think what they do is correct.ca_aok said:
So if a thief rationalizes himself into thinking that he is not a thief that makes a thief not a thief?ca_aok said:
You have been escaping all along.ca_aok said:
Yes I agree on the fact that there are sites out there that takes time,effort and socialization to get an invite.ca_aok said:
How come it is irrelevant,When collectors who spend their time,effort and does write fucking long paragraphs are the same as a trader.You said this din't you "traders are too lazy to write anything more than a few words, too lazy to fill out an application or take an interview, and too lazy to give anything back to any site they join. Fucking over the people who're risking their asses so that you can download free stuff might be fine for you, that's your call."AbyBeats said:
You constantly make no sense.ca_aok said:
From this you seem to have too little personality. You SHOULD always do what you believe suits best your needs/interests. Never act like a robot who's told by someone else to do a certain thing.
Some people obey the rules because they are simply obediant or really believe rules must be respected(cause they are the right thing to do). But there are also people who take a look at some rules and say some are crap and they also act in consequence.
@Stoi at some point you said something that traders don't get involved and they always stay lurking in darkness. I passed that time and I can tell you I was nothing like you described although I do suspect I might have been an exception from the rule.
@ca_aok if you have an original cd and it gets scratched, unlistenable the yes ofc you can download the same rip from a tracker. But don't tell me that a downloaded torrent isn't a loss from the ones that have the right to sell it on market.