Is invite trading really that bad?

[BroD]

@sez so just because you cant see whats in there, they possibly do kiddie porn? all i can say is of course they bloody dont.

The trading argument will go on forever, and there will be no winner, but you mentioned Oink allowed it, and they got on fine, hmm he got arrested and the site took down, now we will never know if the reason he got taken down was because of a trader or not, but it didnt exactly do the site any favours.

The way i see it, the whole BT hierarchy is fucked up.

Get a seedbox/Cheat = get a higher class, get invites/into the invite forums of the tracker, trade invites on places like FST, who most of the time you have no idea who they are, even if they have 100rep 500 posts and show you speedtests, links to tracker profiles (they could have cheated their ratio as well).

Also giving them only to people you know is bollocks as well, most peoples friends, wont torrent, those that do may just be used to public trackers, you can teach them everything in the book, but if they just dont want to do it, then they wont do it.

Which user is more deserving of an invite, and which user will probably get one.

A: Ul:400 gig DL 400gig helpful in comments/forums/IRC
B: UL 1TB DL 20gig Never seen in comments/forums/IRC

Without user A there is noone for user B to upload to.

Traders usually are collectors, you dont "need" to get into any tracker, but if the chance comes along, then take it, you dont "need" to trade to get into anywhere, you dont need to arse lick either, just take part in the communities you are a member off (which will make those communites even better) and the offers will come.

This is just my take on it, I am not one of these and I have never heard any staffer say this, but its about competition, how many private trackers are there 1000`s, but lets take the ones in the WTO, guessing off the top of my head 100 in there. now level 1-4 have 100,000+ members, lvl 10 have 2000 ish members, how many of the lvl 8-10 members, are in a few 1-4 trackers, i would say 99% of them, so we are all fighting for their "custom", now whether that is Tracker activity, community activity, Donations or whatever, its still competition, so its more, if you go there, you are going to leave us, so we are going to loose a good member, even though we do everything tracker lvl 8-10 does (and maybe even do it better). Or, why were we not good enough for you, why didnt you like is etc etc etc.

as for the traders, most start out with the curiosity of a cat, hmm TL wonder what thats like, oh great i can trade my BCG invite for it, next its, oh, lvl6 tracker, i can trade my TL invite for it, just because i want to see what its got, then lvl 6 invite to get a lvl 7 etc etc, and then like anything, it gets addictive, its like pokemon "gotta have them all" and usually at any cost.

My take is, as long as trackers are closed, and they have invites that are based on ratio (which is a lot easier now than it was 5 years ago, just with the advent of seedboxes, and not 32KBs upload for most), then you will get traders, and even if they give invites to everyone, they will still get traders, if you make it harder/more involved to get invites (like IRC participation, not just idling, forum posting but not just in the "what music are you listening to"/"the girl next door thread") then maybe you will get members that actually care something for the tracker, so have no need to trade.

I dont really care about invite traders, but i do think "why, are we not good enough or something?" when i see our referrals getting traded, I have ran a tracker for 7 years now, and have put a lot into it, so when someone decides to trade to get into somewhere else, I am going to think "why". OK its just the net, and the net is full of strange people, but it still gets to me sometimes, other times its just, fuck you then lol

I am not sure if i answered the OPs question there, or just went off on one, but its 3am and thats all you are getting off me tonight (and no i am not drunk lol)

 

[Avory]

Oh, the world is not black and white eh? We'll come back to this at the end of what will be my last reply to your tired logic.

Then again,you were not going to read or gonna listen.Not surprised.

Actually I did read it, it's merely incorrect. You "claim" that you believe that every download isn't a lost sale, and then you contradict yourself immediately afterward by trying to tell me that creators are somehow losing money from these copies.

The famous argument "Copying files is not theft" is horseshit really and everyone knows it as well.People are comparing two different systems on the same level.In real world copying may not be a big deal because there is no loss to the creator but when a digital file gets copied,it deprives the creators the money they deserve for the work they did.They are not "working" for free now are they? Suppose if in the real world as well,If people had the means of replicating the exact copies of Books or the products they buy in large scale,what would have been the state?

Umm... "Everyone really knows it is" is not a valid argument to back up your failure of a claim. And actually, we're comparing systems on two different levels, not the least of which is criminal v.s. civil. Oh and pro tip: It's called photocopiers, and libraries. Or using a different example, the radio. Or antenna TV. Or tape recordings. Society didn't fall apart due to any of those, despite bleating from the media corporations.

And you are someone who uses petty excuses to make yourself believe what you are doing is correct and also accepts you are breaking rules and at the same time throws tantrums about Morality at others.

I never said I was correct, I corrected your idiocy. There's a difference.

So to wrap things up, you prefaced your post with "the world is not black and white". Well neither is filesharing. Your terrible argument of "you're breaking one rule, therefore fuck all other rules" is ridiculous. I fully expect you to go out there and start murdering, raping, and pillaging since hey, you're "stealing", so saying we should follow any other rules is of course stupid!

Furthermore, the shades of gray in filesharing is exactly where morality comes into play. If you accepted the logic that just because you pirate, you can't just ignore every other rule on the planet, then perhaps you'd realize that pissing off the people who put themselves at risk so that you can pirate is immoral and childish. "Honour among thieves" is a misused term that's often thrown around, but it's got a ring of truth to it as well. If you don't want to play nicely, no one's forcing you to use private BT sites, and indeed, eventually you'll be forcefully ejected. And we won't miss you. If you want to just consume consume consume, I suggest a usenet subscription.

Enjoy being an e-thug.

 

[Almedin C]

The author of that grossly oversimplifies things and it's clear that he's trying to bolster his own view by making silly statements. LOL@ traders being "trusted", I can't imagine a system where there's less trust in place. As a general rule you won't know each other, you should both be paranoid that the other guy is actually a staffer baiting you, etc.

The problem isn't so much the whole RIAA/MPAA thing, that's just what people spew out when they have no clue what the real issues are. The problem is that most traders are generally, for lack of a better word, scum. I see trading as the "gateway drug" of the torrenting world. It starts with a simple one time deal for a site you want. Maybe you treasure that account and use it well. Whatever, it was a means to an end. However, it often doesn't stop there. You start realizing that you can't be assed to do things the normal way, I mean, why bother asking for invites when you can just trade yours away. So you start trading more and more. Eventually you've made so many trades and lost so many of your accounts that it's no longer about just getting into that one unobtainable site, it's about spitting in the face of tracker staff, trading for a "buffered account" and then hit and running a place bone dry, etc. Soon enough, if you're cutting corners here, why not throw the rest of the rules out the window? Might as well start selling invites since the torrent sites themselves aren't doing much for you. This is especially great when they donate for invites, sell them, then claim the cash back from paypal and get your account frozen. Hell, might as well start cheating too, you probably have multiple accounts and you need a way to buffer them fast so they're worth more. Eventually it all becomes a game, and you probably don't even torrent much anymore.

Soon you degrade from a simple one-time trader into a scumbag that's a collector, trader, seller, cheater, all rolled into one. And you've forgotten why you even started trading in the first place.

And say what you will, the WTAW/WTO is a huge part of the problem. The reason many people trade is because of the "rarity levels", since they're under some delusion that the high level trackers are the best (and for trade value, they are). Without that stupid shit, it wouldn't be that big of an issue. If there was some other 0-day site like FTN with a comparable number of members, but wasn't on that list, it really wouldn't have many problems from traders.

Public giveaways are just as bad, especially when it's for rep points to bolster your trading power here or try and get an invite to a "high level site" here.

Rules are in place at private trackers for the betterment of the site, swarms, and the community. If you don't want to follow them, just fuck off to public trackers or newsgroups or something, where it's irrelevant and you can leech to your heart's content. Traders love to talk about how difficult invites are to acquire, and yet the entire reason it's difficult for them to get invites is because no one knows who they are. As a trader, you spend your time living in the shadows. You hide behind proxies, have to use different browsers for different sites, have a million emails to keep track of, you have to avoid the forums/IRC because anything that might draw staff eyes to your profile is a danger, and you constantly change your nick. The end result of this is no one has any basis on which to get to know you or trust you. Additionally, they come here and get "Trader Rep" and then expect people to bend over backwards in a giveaway for them, so that they can then trade that account down the road when something "rarer" comes along? Well fuck them.

If I might echo the response of one of the last commentators, join What, through the interview if necessary, hit power user, you now have invites to all the sites you reasonably need. You don't need to worry about all this bullshit, and you'll be happier for it. Unless you're looking for unlimited invites to those "high level trackers", you'll be able to find whatever you need.

False. I believe every single person that says they traded with the impression that it was the right thing to do (oblivious to the truth, as you would say). The problem is the BT world is huge, and someone fresh off the bench from public trackers googling "FTN invite" will probably end up on a trading board and see hundreds of people carrying out the deed in broad daylight (in retrospect). It would be naive to assume that everyone who trades knows it's wrong, just as it would be naive to assume that people trade for as few reasons as people list often. I'm sure exclusivity and sharing aren't the only reasons; but more sinister ones like it becoming a hobby, or their will to aggravate some staffer somewhere also play a part.

Read the Rules on any site (you did agree to do so before joining didn't you?), and you'll see the problem. It's clearly wrong. You might start out oblivious, but when the first ban rolls around, you'd figure it out pretty quick.

 

[~pink loVer~]

I'm not reading all of that since I'm sure it says nothing that hasn't been said here a ton of times already. But my opinion, no...of course not all invite trading is bad. Stoi has given a great example in the past of invite trading that doesn't harm anything.

 

[Andy Q]

1) Gatorade
2) Condoms

Please don't try to socialize with me as it will get you nowhere.:angry:

 

[theguitarmaster101]

Bullshit, what you basically are saying is that trackers needs traders.They wont do much shit there,eventually fake a great ratio to get invites and continue trading to get more and more high level trackers.

Where the hell do I say that? I don't think thats true but it happens like anything illegal does. What I'm saying is that trackers have a flow of members going in and out of the tracker and some of that comes from trading. What does tracker prefer do you think? Traders or open invites? Trading is not good at all but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen at all, and can't be considered a good thing for people that want to keep their trackers safe.

 

[Ms Thang]

If it wasn't for the traders and sellers, most sites wouldn't feel the need to try and limit invites as they do. And of course, because of the limited invites, traders and sellers become more prevalent. Positive feedback loops ftl I suppose.

Obviously the only certain and lasting solution would be to make everything "non-exclusive" but that's Socialist talk and obviously not in line with the whole principle behind the internet.:mellow:

Sounds like it's right out of Stalin's mouth, comrade.

 

[smile!]

So what is your moral stance on pirating?

I haven't actually deprived anyone of anything except an imaginary sale. And oddly enough, I often discover something via piracy that actually encourages me to go out and buy the physical product. I had at last count ~350 CDs and 60 LPs, which is a hell of a lot more than most people I know who pirate less than I do.I pay for cable, but I'd rather not rely on syndication to dictate whether I can rewatch an episode or movie. I'd feel much worse taking a candy bar from the convenience store down the street.

Irrelevant stuff.Stealing is stealing even if you own Disney for yourself.

Maybe from a cynical viewpoint. I don't suck up to people for invites, which is what passes for socializing in the torrenting world these days.

I dint say you are socializing for invites but I said you got invited because you socialized.Oh and how was it in the old days of torrenting?

 

[purplepassionhll]

Yeah, I don't think anyone can justify that kind of trader.

There are good traders, bad traders, and traders that simply don't know any better (simply new to all this torrent shizzle).

What are the good kind of traders in your eyes? I did not know you supported certain kinds of trades. :O

 

[kuletboi]

Trading brings more negativity to the system than the small positive sides it has.Even if positive sides are embraced,it opens a series of loopholes for exploitation.The system is better without it.

 

[burbonas]

Why does this always turn into a morality debate? RAB, Pirating is not a MAJOR crime,maybe a big fine(at least where i am from). Does anyone think these artists/movie studios do not make their money,even if the product sucks.?

 

[karregaard]

If you don't understand the difference between copyright infringement and theft (which is a legal definition, not a made up one like your view on the matter), then I'm done with you. You clearly have no inclination to listen to anything but the incorrect bullshit you spew. Collectors are a problem for a whole different reason outside the entire scope of this thread, which has to do with trading, period.

You're the one who's escaping reality here. I'm quite aware that I'm breaking the law, but I'm not committing theft. Arguing that everyone who downloads something equates to a lost sale is quite simply retarded logic. I'd never have bought 90% of what I've pirated, and the other 10% has generally been bought after the fact.

 

[Nazanin]

Only irrelevant to those who have made up their minds on the matter already. You have your views, I have mine, neither of us will sway each other. You'll note that people aren't charged with theft, they're charged with copyright infringement.

I dint say you are socializing for invites but I said you got invited because you socialized.Oh and how was it in the old days of torrenting?

As I said, not necessary for pretty much any site. The truth of the matter is, traders are too lazy to write anything more than a few words, too lazy to fill out an application or take an interview, and too lazy to give anything back to any site they join. Fucking over the people who're risking their asses so that you can download free stuff might be fine for you, that's your call.

If you want to fileshare without having to worry about others, stick to DDL or Usenet.

 

[uncleiniraq]

I believe stoi has given a great example of the different type of users. I never traded before but I look at it this way. Trading will get you burned in the end. It's just not worth it. You should have to earn your way into a tracker that you want by helping out others with their questions, obeying the rules, respect the staff, being active on forums, hanging out on irc and actually downloading/uploading torrents while maintaining a good ratio on all of them. That's just my $0.02.

 

[Pregnant With #1!]

Yes every download is not a sale.If people had to buy every Music CD/Movie DVD out there,many just wont buy at all and just buy the stuff they are interested in buying.But that dosent give you the license to go around making copies now does it?

Oh and pro tip: It's called photocopiers, and libraries. Or using a different example, the radio. Or antenna TV. Or tape recordings. Society didn't fall apart due to any of those, despite bleating from the media corporations.

oh and protip,you missed the word "large scale" in my reply.It makes a helleva lot of difference you know.and oh gawd having an exact copy of CD/DVD with you is the same as listening to or watching radio or TV?If you want I can give you the differences between the two.

Your terrible argument of "you're breaking one rule, therefore fuck all other rules" is ridiculous.

Incorrect.I dint say just because you are breaking one rule,fuck all other rules.This discussion was never ever about rules now,was it?It was about morality.You seem to have a twisted sense of morality when you feel OK to break law and then apply moral principles on the RULES BUILT ON the SAME immoral system.

Furthermore, the shades of gray in filesharing is exactly where morality comes into play. If you accepted the logic that just because you pirate, you can't just ignore every other rule on the planet, then perhaps you'd realize that pissing off the people who put themselves at risk so that you can pirate is immoral and childish. "Honour among thieves" is a misused term that's often thrown around, but it's got a ring of truth to it as well.

I lol'd when you said "that pissing off the people who put themselves at risk so that you can pirate is immoral and childish".aaah oh well.:lol:.lemme ask you something.The people who risk their lifes just so that normal lowly humans like me can download files are doing it voluntarily right?Is anyone pressuring them to do what they do?And what type of risk are you talking about?who are the ones getting copyright infringement letters,Members who expose their IPs while downloading or the Mods/Admins who are well secured by employing different kinds of security and privacy measures to hide themselves?

If you don't want to play nicely, no one's forcing you to use private BT sites

I wont break the rules but at the same time I know throwing moral crap is baseless and stupid as well.

and indeed, eventually you'll be forcefully ejected.

I dont see myself getting ejected until i decide to do so myself.

If you want to just consume consume consume, I suggest a usenet subscription.

Usenet and DDL communities are another way to share the files where PEOPLE SHARE FILES.What makes you think Usenet is all about "consume consume consume",because people dont have to put their PC online 24*7 and keep on seeding?Is that what you call giving back to the community?

 

[loving_girl9009]

well if the person you traded with (i mean accounts more than invites, but it still happens with invite traders as well) was a new member, or didnt use the community much, then you came in and started to use it, then of course it would be hard to spot, but if the member was in good standing, had 400 torrents downloaded 100+ comments/forum posts/IRC whore, you come in on his account, and ask why you cant download (or any other noob question) or just write in a different way to the usual user, then it pretty easy, hence why most ppl that trade to get in, try to stay hidden in the background.

as for the 1 download = 1 loss of sales, what a load of rubbish, if i had to buy windows, i would use linux, I downloaded Maya with the Pixar addon a few years back, $18,000 of software at the time, I just done it to say i had a program on my pc that cost more than most peoples cars lol I did install it, mesed about for 2-3 hours, then never looked at it again, I would have never ever bought it in a million years, as there is just no way i could afford $18,000 for 1 program. But saying that, if my job was to use maya and the pixar addon, and i was on a good salery, then yes, I would have bought it.

and on the other hand, Kick Ass the movie, never seen a trailer, my son went to see it, came back said hmm it was ok, so i never really looked into it, I downloded it the other week, thought it was great, right up my street with the OTT fighting aka Hard Boiled, Itchi the Killer etc and bought it on Blu-Ray/DVD combo, but if i had never downloaded it, I would have never even thought to have bought it, ever. (well maybe in 4 years when it comes out on TV).

 

[Megan W]

The relationship between rule abiding members of trackers and conformist monkeys is truly insulting...
And the quoted post was obviously written by a deranged invite trader, that most likely just got banned off a high level tracker he traded for.

There were already many valid points given here, so I'm not going to rehash them all back for you again.
But I think you would have to agree... That to maintain a level of quality on trackers that their must be rules put in place.
These rules aren't made to bash you down and take power over anyone (shame on any site that does), they are made to craft a clean and efficient community...

If I truly felt suppressed by any of these rules or ideals of these trackers, I would be the first to speak out about them.. As I have in the past on multiple occasions.

 

[Smerfcia]

Arguing that everyone who downloads something equates to a lost sale is quite simply retarded logic.

Well believe it or not, that is exactly a lost sale. Hehe, I just discovered gravity .

 

[kellyhuffaker]

Well, if you ask me, I'll not trade invites to anyone because of the very fact that he/she can abuse that account and I may be get banned for that reason!

 

[Loofster]

Well, if you ask me, I'll not trade invites to anyone because of the very fact that he/she can abuse that account and I may be get banned for that reason!

You can use that exact same logic to not even giveaway invites... :dry: