Geek Cast Radio Network's Top 100 Animated Series Countdown
- Thread starter Rigor Morty
- Start date
clcprodigy
New member
Whilst I prepare my list, there's a few things in general about this project I'd like to generally comment on.
Bah, you beat me to the punch line there! Great minds...
#1.) Definition and Scope
First off is the scope: (this goes more towards everyone in this thread then the project itself) The idea of making an "All time best list" from anyone's point of view is where the scope of the project lays. Are we going for cultural impact? Ok, here's one list that demonstrates that; Are we going for industry impact? Ok, here's one list that demonstrates that. Without any other examples, I'm sure everyone sees where I am going with this. I feel that in general, both people commenting on this list and the people making this list weren't completely clear on the scope of the project and I feel that came from a little lack of definition or maybe more accurately, personal bias about what their interpretation of what the scope of the project was.
You could feel this a little in the first show of the series where it felt like more then a few people participating on this evaluated the scope of the project slightly different. Its also very obvious from this thread that others evaluated that scope (or ignored it) differently too.
So right out of the cage, I think there was both communication and bias issues that could have been vastly mitigated. I think a slightly better named list may have helped too. Based on what was said in the introduction episode, I think a better name for the list may have been (off the top of my head) Top 100 Animated Series of Their Time.
That being said throughout the shows of this series, I feel like the guys at GCR learned a TON.
#2.) Biases
Anyone who has ever taken a sociology class (and payed attention) knows that no matter what you do, you can't escape biases. It's a natural part of who we are. The best you can do is attempt to build in tools to mitigate them.
In the case of this project, I think it demonstrated a few tools that need to be added to the tool box. For starters, I think EVERYONE participating in this project needs to vote on each series. In order to do this, I would highly recommend splitting up each series into several captions that fit the scope of the project. For each show, in each caption, you could then have each person vote on it between 1 - 10. Of course, we need to be very clear what 1 means versus what 10 means (theres that definition thing again). The advantage of doing it this way is you can weight out each caption depending what you are trying to prove with the list. Looking for the all time best story in a series? Limit your scope to that caption! Looking for the all time best executed series? Limit your scope to a few, relevant captions.
The pool of people who participated in this probably needs to be re-evaluated. I'd love to say there should be 500 or 1,000 people participating in this "survey", but to be realistic, theres only a handful of people that would really sit down and give each series a serious look over and attempt to evaluate each one. I'd say at most, there's probably about 50 people on TZ that would do that. That being said, I would suggest 100 would be a great scope to look at.
#3.) Design
I have to say that I *REALLY* facepalmed at was when some people were saying "Well, I placed this series higher then I think it should because I didn't think others would vote for it". No, just no.. That violated the process significantly. If you felt you had to do that, then I feel like you guys should have recognized early on that there was a problem with your system.
I touched on this in the last section already but I feel it's best to reiterate this. As soon as I heard how you guys were doing this I knew there going to be problems. At the end, I think you guys certainly realized that as well.
#4.) Break it apart
I think one problem every single one of these lists has had to date is everyone keeps trying to make "The ultimate countdown list" without trying to figure out other things first.
Like I mentioned early on, I have been playing around with the idea of making this kind of a list with TZ community support for a long time, but I haven't yet largely because I don't feel I have enough information compiled just. I've even approached the admins of TZ to help (although they never responded) to see if they were interested in making a TZ Feature out of it.
ALL THAT being said, there's absolutely no reason you can't make a "All time best action series", "All time best anime series (broadcast in the US)" or "All time best 80s action series" list. As long as you use the same structure each time you do it, its more polling numbers you can use later.
That being said, if you had someone a list and say "This time we're evaluating the best shows from Toonami", I think its going to give you a more accurate read re-using that persons information because their mindset on a particular topic is ALSO going to cause bias. As long as the numbers are averaged in the end, its simply more information.
The "Ultimate List" should really be a culmination of every other list and every other piece of research you've done. It should be the crowning point of almost years of research. You really can't start at the top and expect to have a perfect (or even very good list). Even after all that, like I suggested before, you're still going to have to have a little more definition to it.
#5.) Don't lump series together
This is the big one that I feel really hurts the creditably of every list to date. Each and every list has lumped series together.
The prime example from this list is Super Friends. Each different version of that series is a different version because the previous one didn't work quiet right and there was a serious attempt to try to keep funneling more money into fixing OR there was a fundamental change in the show.
Each version of the Super Friends had a distinct and different feature that changed it dramatically. One attempted to capitalize on the success of Scooby Doo and Batman crossovers, one attempted to stay as close to the storylines as possible, one attempted to push to the extremes and slightly bump what was supposed to be on TV at the time, another focused on cameos and another focused on rehashing previous episodes. Each of those versions had different team members that participated on them and it made for a unique project.
At the end of the day, that PROBABLY means the individual series shouldn't poll well and I feel thats more accurate. If the series had trouble finding a formula that REALLY worked, it's probably really not top 100 worthy. It becomes more of a foot note in the top 100.
Bah, you beat me to the punch line there! Great minds...
#1.) Definition and Scope
First off is the scope: (this goes more towards everyone in this thread then the project itself) The idea of making an "All time best list" from anyone's point of view is where the scope of the project lays. Are we going for cultural impact? Ok, here's one list that demonstrates that; Are we going for industry impact? Ok, here's one list that demonstrates that. Without any other examples, I'm sure everyone sees where I am going with this. I feel that in general, both people commenting on this list and the people making this list weren't completely clear on the scope of the project and I feel that came from a little lack of definition or maybe more accurately, personal bias about what their interpretation of what the scope of the project was.
You could feel this a little in the first show of the series where it felt like more then a few people participating on this evaluated the scope of the project slightly different. Its also very obvious from this thread that others evaluated that scope (or ignored it) differently too.
So right out of the cage, I think there was both communication and bias issues that could have been vastly mitigated. I think a slightly better named list may have helped too. Based on what was said in the introduction episode, I think a better name for the list may have been (off the top of my head) Top 100 Animated Series of Their Time.
That being said throughout the shows of this series, I feel like the guys at GCR learned a TON.
#2.) Biases
Anyone who has ever taken a sociology class (and payed attention) knows that no matter what you do, you can't escape biases. It's a natural part of who we are. The best you can do is attempt to build in tools to mitigate them.
In the case of this project, I think it demonstrated a few tools that need to be added to the tool box. For starters, I think EVERYONE participating in this project needs to vote on each series. In order to do this, I would highly recommend splitting up each series into several captions that fit the scope of the project. For each show, in each caption, you could then have each person vote on it between 1 - 10. Of course, we need to be very clear what 1 means versus what 10 means (theres that definition thing again). The advantage of doing it this way is you can weight out each caption depending what you are trying to prove with the list. Looking for the all time best story in a series? Limit your scope to that caption! Looking for the all time best executed series? Limit your scope to a few, relevant captions.
The pool of people who participated in this probably needs to be re-evaluated. I'd love to say there should be 500 or 1,000 people participating in this "survey", but to be realistic, theres only a handful of people that would really sit down and give each series a serious look over and attempt to evaluate each one. I'd say at most, there's probably about 50 people on TZ that would do that. That being said, I would suggest 100 would be a great scope to look at.
#3.) Design
I have to say that I *REALLY* facepalmed at was when some people were saying "Well, I placed this series higher then I think it should because I didn't think others would vote for it". No, just no.. That violated the process significantly. If you felt you had to do that, then I feel like you guys should have recognized early on that there was a problem with your system.
I touched on this in the last section already but I feel it's best to reiterate this. As soon as I heard how you guys were doing this I knew there going to be problems. At the end, I think you guys certainly realized that as well.
#4.) Break it apart
I think one problem every single one of these lists has had to date is everyone keeps trying to make "The ultimate countdown list" without trying to figure out other things first.
Like I mentioned early on, I have been playing around with the idea of making this kind of a list with TZ community support for a long time, but I haven't yet largely because I don't feel I have enough information compiled just. I've even approached the admins of TZ to help (although they never responded) to see if they were interested in making a TZ Feature out of it.
ALL THAT being said, there's absolutely no reason you can't make a "All time best action series", "All time best anime series (broadcast in the US)" or "All time best 80s action series" list. As long as you use the same structure each time you do it, its more polling numbers you can use later.
That being said, if you had someone a list and say "This time we're evaluating the best shows from Toonami", I think its going to give you a more accurate read re-using that persons information because their mindset on a particular topic is ALSO going to cause bias. As long as the numbers are averaged in the end, its simply more information.
The "Ultimate List" should really be a culmination of every other list and every other piece of research you've done. It should be the crowning point of almost years of research. You really can't start at the top and expect to have a perfect (or even very good list). Even after all that, like I suggested before, you're still going to have to have a little more definition to it.
#5.) Don't lump series together
This is the big one that I feel really hurts the creditably of every list to date. Each and every list has lumped series together.
The prime example from this list is Super Friends. Each different version of that series is a different version because the previous one didn't work quiet right and there was a serious attempt to try to keep funneling more money into fixing OR there was a fundamental change in the show.
Each version of the Super Friends had a distinct and different feature that changed it dramatically. One attempted to capitalize on the success of Scooby Doo and Batman crossovers, one attempted to stay as close to the storylines as possible, one attempted to push to the extremes and slightly bump what was supposed to be on TV at the time, another focused on cameos and another focused on rehashing previous episodes. Each of those versions had different team members that participated on them and it made for a unique project.
At the end of the day, that PROBABLY means the individual series shouldn't poll well and I feel thats more accurate. If the series had trouble finding a formula that REALLY worked, it's probably really not top 100 worthy. It becomes more of a foot note in the top 100.
I liked where all pretty much ranked except Beast Wars. I so felt as did BW Megatron that it was top 15 worthy to say the least. TFG1 should have been where Beast Wars was. Since that's not how it went down I will post my personal predictions on where I think some will be and what they will be in a spoiler tag. Although I do agree with what Andrew posted above on what I think will appear. I will attempt to order them based on what I think will come in where for the overall list. Also of note, I will bust up laughing during the record if I nail these on the head.
I will get some prepared details to defend as well since most at this point are predictable.
I will get some prepared details to defend as well since most at this point are predictable.
20) He-Man and the Masters of the Universe
19) Animaniacs
18) The Flintstones
17) Tiny Toon Adventures
16) Justice League
15) Transformers: Generation 1
14) Darkwing Duck
13) Gargoyles
12) Spider-Man: The Animated Series
11) Futurama
10) X-Men: The Animated Series
9) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
8) G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero
7) DuckTales
6) Batman Beyond
5) South Park
4) Scooby-Doo Where Are You?
3) Looney Tunes
2) Batman: The Animated Series
1) The Simpsons
19) Animaniacs
18) The Flintstones
17) Tiny Toon Adventures
16) Justice League
15) Transformers: Generation 1
14) Darkwing Duck
13) Gargoyles
12) Spider-Man: The Animated Series
11) Futurama
10) X-Men: The Animated Series
9) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
8) G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero
7) DuckTales
6) Batman Beyond
5) South Park
4) Scooby-Doo Where Are You?
3) Looney Tunes
2) Batman: The Animated Series
1) The Simpsons
Blaque BarBee
New member
I believe we stated it in Episode 20, but one of the reasons why we started our project is because kevin and myself got fed up with finding out the rankings of cartoons when doing ToonCast Episodes. I know wikipedia is user generated and all but why is it only the IGN rankings are listed?? Someone pointed out to me that Wizard had a list like this how come those rankings aren't listed on wiki for each cartoon?
I'm not saying we didn't get things wrong in our list we very much did with TFG1 being at #3. However I'm very happy with our list overall. I think it's a list for geeks and slightly better then IGN's list. I HAVE NO FREAKIN IDEA why everyone holds the IGN list in such high acclaim. Well minus the 700 people that found things wrong with it.
At this point I'm moving on. The project is done minus the wrap up show this week. We have talked about redoing the list next year, but honestly I'm not even into doing this all over again. Because as some of you here pointed out no Top list will ever be correct in the general publics eye.
As far as our title:The Geek Cast Radio Network Top 100 Animated Series Of All Time we were trying to go for the best cartoons of all time. Even if some of us (me included) ended up voting nostalgia on our personal lists the thing that people have to remember is it wasn't just one person making this project. It was 20 different people. Not all of us will have the same animation watching whether it be anime or western animation. The age range was from 19 years old to 40 years old. I'm betting most of the editors at IGN aren't even in their 30's yet.
I do appreciate all the feedback from rabroad here and thanks again to Sketch for posting this thread.
If we redo the list next year maybe we should get rabroad officially involved. And have maybe a total of 30-40 different lists make up the master list.
I dunno right now I'm burnt out on the whole thing.
I'm not saying we didn't get things wrong in our list we very much did with TFG1 being at #3. However I'm very happy with our list overall. I think it's a list for geeks and slightly better then IGN's list. I HAVE NO FREAKIN IDEA why everyone holds the IGN list in such high acclaim. Well minus the 700 people that found things wrong with it.
At this point I'm moving on. The project is done minus the wrap up show this week. We have talked about redoing the list next year, but honestly I'm not even into doing this all over again. Because as some of you here pointed out no Top list will ever be correct in the general publics eye.
As far as our title:The Geek Cast Radio Network Top 100 Animated Series Of All Time we were trying to go for the best cartoons of all time. Even if some of us (me included) ended up voting nostalgia on our personal lists the thing that people have to remember is it wasn't just one person making this project. It was 20 different people. Not all of us will have the same animation watching whether it be anime or western animation. The age range was from 19 years old to 40 years old. I'm betting most of the editors at IGN aren't even in their 30's yet.
I do appreciate all the feedback from rabroad here and thanks again to Sketch for posting this thread.
If we redo the list next year maybe we should get rabroad officially involved. And have maybe a total of 30-40 different lists make up the master list.
I dunno right now I'm burnt out on the whole thing.
You know Mike I'm not sure why other rankings shows have gotten are not listed on IGN. Perhaps all it would take would be for someone to go about adding the rankings from the Wizard list and such to the individual articles and hope that the article would not get edited again removing that information.
Given the relative ease in comparison to "best of all time" I do think doing a list for every decade (maybe the top 25-50 of every decade rather than 100) and compiling those lists to determine a selection of shows worthy of the top 100 and then voting on them with a large poll would be a good way to go about doing a top 100 of all time.
I think in the case of breaking lumped shows up that's gonna have to be a case to case basis. Take Justice League and Justice League Unlimited for instance. If I didn't lump those together I'd probably put them both on the top 100. I'd say they're pretty much the same show and not dramatically different in their approach but JLA and JLU did have somewhat different feels and one opted for 1 hour stories and the other for half hour ones with a richer on-going story. There are some people out there who would actually lump together the entire DCAU. I certainly don't agree with that and I don't even agree Batman Beyond should be lumped with Batman: TAS it was its own show and has its' own merits that would put it in the top 100.
I'd personally like to separate TMNT 2003 from Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers because the later two series dragged it waaay down but I'd have to lump them together and merely factor in the weaker seasons into the overall ranking just as I would with Justice League.
SuperFriends is perhaps an odd case of drastically different seasons/series. I might argue the 2nd season of Iron Man and The Fantastic Four cartoons of the 90s are also cases in which the seasons are so drastically different they hardly seem like the same show. Though even the 2nd seasons aren't top 100 material IMO so it doesn't really matter.
I'd probably lump Beast Machines in with Transformers Beast Wars as well and Beast Machines would be hard pressed to make Top 100 on just its' own merits.
People aren't likely to lump Dragon Ball with Dragon Ball Z much less Dragon Ball GT either.
On the flip side of that people are not likely to split apart and rank the individual series of Pokemon and Sailor Moon despite having notable changes in each.
That's a bit of the problem with franchises that have multiple series unless they were separated by several years and considered revamps or spin-offs they are often looked at as the same show. Be that correct or not it's something people probably assumed when making their lists for this. I'm pretty sure more of the Transformers fans in the poll would have voted for Beast Machines had they not assumed it was counted as part of Beast Wars.
Given the relative ease in comparison to "best of all time" I do think doing a list for every decade (maybe the top 25-50 of every decade rather than 100) and compiling those lists to determine a selection of shows worthy of the top 100 and then voting on them with a large poll would be a good way to go about doing a top 100 of all time.
I think in the case of breaking lumped shows up that's gonna have to be a case to case basis. Take Justice League and Justice League Unlimited for instance. If I didn't lump those together I'd probably put them both on the top 100. I'd say they're pretty much the same show and not dramatically different in their approach but JLA and JLU did have somewhat different feels and one opted for 1 hour stories and the other for half hour ones with a richer on-going story. There are some people out there who would actually lump together the entire DCAU. I certainly don't agree with that and I don't even agree Batman Beyond should be lumped with Batman: TAS it was its own show and has its' own merits that would put it in the top 100.
I'd personally like to separate TMNT 2003 from Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers because the later two series dragged it waaay down but I'd have to lump them together and merely factor in the weaker seasons into the overall ranking just as I would with Justice League.
SuperFriends is perhaps an odd case of drastically different seasons/series. I might argue the 2nd season of Iron Man and The Fantastic Four cartoons of the 90s are also cases in which the seasons are so drastically different they hardly seem like the same show. Though even the 2nd seasons aren't top 100 material IMO so it doesn't really matter.
I'd probably lump Beast Machines in with Transformers Beast Wars as well and Beast Machines would be hard pressed to make Top 100 on just its' own merits.
People aren't likely to lump Dragon Ball with Dragon Ball Z much less Dragon Ball GT either.
On the flip side of that people are not likely to split apart and rank the individual series of Pokemon and Sailor Moon despite having notable changes in each.
That's a bit of the problem with franchises that have multiple series unless they were separated by several years and considered revamps or spin-offs they are often looked at as the same show. Be that correct or not it's something people probably assumed when making their lists for this. I'm pretty sure more of the Transformers fans in the poll would have voted for Beast Machines had they not assumed it was counted as part of Beast Wars.
I haven't listened to the Podcast yet so for the moment I am just responding to some of the things people have beens saying.
I'd argue that, at least up until Slimmer and the Real Ghostbusters, The Real Ghostbusters is one of the top shows from the 80s in terms of sheer rewatchability and how well it aged. Earlier I talked about Gummi Bears being one of the series that I feel aged the best from the 80s. This is the other one.
This series really deserves to be very high on any list because it nails some of the main captions I find most important in a top 100 list.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this shows value in the grand scheme of things. I really don't think it did much. It never achieved good ratings, it never sold any toys, it's debatable how much it helped comic sales, it certainly didn't influence comics except for nods generally used to either be jarring or funny. I'd certainly agree Super Powers Show had some signifigant impact. Even though they use similar graphic styles, they aren't the same series and there's very little that connects them together (if anything). They are as close as JLU is to say Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths.
I'll chime in here to back Sketch up on both points. Even though Avatar has a lot of Japanese type leanings, it most certainly is developed exclusively in the US. Thundercats is literally more anime then Avatar is.
As far Genndy Tarakovsky, the guy should be probably one of the most honored people in animation of our time and I don't think I am being subjective in any way on this. This guy's impact is so strong that George Locus is STILL considering him to be the person to pass the mantle of Star Wars onto for making the next trilogy. He is truly one of the most creative people of our time.
Without knowing where GCR ranked it yet, I am unsure how much I agree where it is. But I will say DBZ's impact on American culture is very profound and really does need to be illuminated well on any top 100 list. It should probably be making top 20 on any list. The only thing I will concede is if we are accounting for DBZ and DBZ Kai, then things might change a bit >.<
This is one its hard for me to really judge before I sit down and personally do a list myself of this scale.
Duck Tales was the game changer for sure and that one probably deserves to be extremely high on any list. Rescue Ranger and Talespin are both really good series and really do stand the test of time. I might have to agree that they should be pretty high on a list.
All of these shows were all kinds of great. I'm unsure where I would actually rank them though.
In the landscape of everything, Alvin and the Chipmunks is actually pretty dang important. Being on for 7 years, its almost in the same ballpark as Smurfs. I'm really surprised that The Chipmunks scored higher then the Smurfs though. I think that one deserves some defense >.<
See, I might be in the minority here especially since Wizards and IGN all ranked these series very high, but its very hard for me to not put a hard line of 40 and below (and that might be generous).
They had some great plots, they explored some great methods for generating popularity, they sold a TON of toys (maybe more like 25 tons) but my big looming concern is all these series had bad dialog and even worse pacing. When you look at other series they were put up against such as Inhumanoids, Wheeled Warriors, Ghostbusters, Gummy Bears and even Pole Position, its hard to not sit back and say "Wow, these series weren't that great for their time". Really, the biggest things for me that forces them on the list is their explosive popularity and the number of toys they sold.
The one big lesson we did learn from all these series is quality isn't necessarily what sells. Sometimes its quantity.
I really have to say this before I forget: Ghostbusters Extreme did not suck!
I'd argue that, at least up until Slimmer and the Real Ghostbusters, The Real Ghostbusters is one of the top shows from the 80s in terms of sheer rewatchability and how well it aged. Earlier I talked about Gummi Bears being one of the series that I feel aged the best from the 80s. This is the other one.
This series really deserves to be very high on any list because it nails some of the main captions I find most important in a top 100 list.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this shows value in the grand scheme of things. I really don't think it did much. It never achieved good ratings, it never sold any toys, it's debatable how much it helped comic sales, it certainly didn't influence comics except for nods generally used to either be jarring or funny. I'd certainly agree Super Powers Show had some signifigant impact. Even though they use similar graphic styles, they aren't the same series and there's very little that connects them together (if anything). They are as close as JLU is to say Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths.
I'll chime in here to back Sketch up on both points. Even though Avatar has a lot of Japanese type leanings, it most certainly is developed exclusively in the US. Thundercats is literally more anime then Avatar is.
As far Genndy Tarakovsky, the guy should be probably one of the most honored people in animation of our time and I don't think I am being subjective in any way on this. This guy's impact is so strong that George Locus is STILL considering him to be the person to pass the mantle of Star Wars onto for making the next trilogy. He is truly one of the most creative people of our time.
Without knowing where GCR ranked it yet, I am unsure how much I agree where it is. But I will say DBZ's impact on American culture is very profound and really does need to be illuminated well on any top 100 list. It should probably be making top 20 on any list. The only thing I will concede is if we are accounting for DBZ and DBZ Kai, then things might change a bit >.<
This is one its hard for me to really judge before I sit down and personally do a list myself of this scale.
Duck Tales was the game changer for sure and that one probably deserves to be extremely high on any list. Rescue Ranger and Talespin are both really good series and really do stand the test of time. I might have to agree that they should be pretty high on a list.
All of these shows were all kinds of great. I'm unsure where I would actually rank them though.
In the landscape of everything, Alvin and the Chipmunks is actually pretty dang important. Being on for 7 years, its almost in the same ballpark as Smurfs. I'm really surprised that The Chipmunks scored higher then the Smurfs though. I think that one deserves some defense >.<
See, I might be in the minority here especially since Wizards and IGN all ranked these series very high, but its very hard for me to not put a hard line of 40 and below (and that might be generous).
They had some great plots, they explored some great methods for generating popularity, they sold a TON of toys (maybe more like 25 tons) but my big looming concern is all these series had bad dialog and even worse pacing. When you look at other series they were put up against such as Inhumanoids, Wheeled Warriors, Ghostbusters, Gummy Bears and even Pole Position, its hard to not sit back and say "Wow, these series weren't that great for their time". Really, the biggest things for me that forces them on the list is their explosive popularity and the number of toys they sold.
The one big lesson we did learn from all these series is quality isn't necessarily what sells. Sometimes its quantity.
I really have to say this before I forget: Ghostbusters Extreme did not suck!
As far as Tiny Toons goes, it should be noted that John K. actually worked on that show early in production and had a terrible experience there. For that I can sort of forgive him for his distaste for that show. He does have issues; he shouldn't have held such a grudge against the Tiny Toons crew that he would blast Animaniacs (a show which improved on Tiny Toons in almost every single way) before he ever saw it, and supposedly he had some issues with Billy West as well. And his opinions in general are pretty off, even when he has a few good points on occasion.
For all his insanity and potential jerkery, though, there are creators who are much worse people. Take Orson Scott Card, for example. If that man had his way, I'd have zero civil rights and would probably be in prison right now. I certainly won't give him my money. But it must be said, Ender's Game is still a damn good book.
For all his insanity and potential jerkery, though, there are creators who are much worse people. Take Orson Scott Card, for example. If that man had his way, I'd have zero civil rights and would probably be in prison right now. I certainly won't give him my money. But it must be said, Ender's Game is still a damn good book.
You actually probably could say some of the Looney Tunes shorts had some of the best animation ever. The Bob Clampett ones definitely have some of the best cartoony character animation around and the design in some of the artier later Chuck Jones ones like What's Opera Doc? is fantastic. I mean, you can't really compare it to Fantasia or Spirited Away since it's a different style, but it is some of the best work in that style.
Anyway, I had some extensive comments posted on the site, if you want to see (under the name rubi-kun).
Anyway, I had some extensive comments posted on the site, if you want to see (under the name rubi-kun).
Sweet Rachel
New member
Do you have a link to this? I know GL loves Tarakovsky's work (Well, duh, we got the Clone Wars mini-series), but I've never heard him say this. That sounds awesome though.
mandaluvzmnkyz
New member
Sorry, but I just can't take these kinds of lists seriously, especially when these rankings are clearly based off of nostalgic personal preference and NOT actual quality.
I mean, really; Super Mario Bros. Super Show coming in at #67? A full 33 slots ahead of the Powerpuff Girls? Wow. That's... that's just wrong. I'm not gonna lie; Super Show is a fun thing to laugh and reminisce about, and it certainly holds its share of nostalgic charm... but come on; that's not quality animation, that's pure 80's camp, plain and simple. You'd be hard pressed to find even 10 high-profile cartoons worse than that, let alone 33 (including everything that presumably won't make this list).
Eh, whatever. These "greatest list of object X" rankings have been around for as long as anyone can remember, so I don't see why this should bother me any more than the countless others I've disagreed with over the years. I really am starting to think that stuff like this is only put out to upset people, though, because honestly; some of these ranking are so inane, it almost screams of being some kind of joke that seeks to ruffle as many feathers as possible.
I mean, really; Super Mario Bros. Super Show coming in at #67? A full 33 slots ahead of the Powerpuff Girls? Wow. That's... that's just wrong. I'm not gonna lie; Super Show is a fun thing to laugh and reminisce about, and it certainly holds its share of nostalgic charm... but come on; that's not quality animation, that's pure 80's camp, plain and simple. You'd be hard pressed to find even 10 high-profile cartoons worse than that, let alone 33 (including everything that presumably won't make this list).
Eh, whatever. These "greatest list of object X" rankings have been around for as long as anyone can remember, so I don't see why this should bother me any more than the countless others I've disagreed with over the years. I really am starting to think that stuff like this is only put out to upset people, though, because honestly; some of these ranking are so inane, it almost screams of being some kind of joke that seeks to ruffle as many feathers as possible.
yelobird96
New member
Did you listen to episode 20?? We range in age from teenagers to 40 year olds!!
You have mentioned rating a number of times and in all my research I have found that digging up rating on 80s shows is nearly impossible. Do you mind sharing your sources? I would love to research this information more!
If that happens I may shoot myself.
THANK YOU!! (AGAIN)
You have mentioned rating a number of times and in all my research I have found that digging up rating on 80s shows is nearly impossible. Do you mind sharing your sources? I would love to research this information more!
If that happens I may shoot myself.
THANK YOU!! (AGAIN)
Hey guys, its OptimusSolo from GeekCast Radio. Love the discussion that is going on here and really hope you tune in to listen to the other episodes. BTW listening is better than just looking at the list because you can hear that we don't even all agree on where certain shows are falling in.
The point of having so many people involved was to try to eliminate as many bias as we could. We talk about bias a lot in episode 20 (especially concerning Anime and the like).
very much looking forward to hear what else you guys have to say about the rest of the countdown!!
The point of having so many people involved was to try to eliminate as many bias as we could. We talk about bias a lot in episode 20 (especially concerning Anime and the like).
very much looking forward to hear what else you guys have to say about the rest of the countdown!!
But the thing is with JL/JLU they are listed as the same show because THEY are the same show JLU was just rebranded... it's all 5 seasons same cartoon. look up "justice league unlimited" on imdb you don't get anything but just the show titled justice league with states that it's 5 seasons 2 for JL and 3 for JLU. Only the DCAU creators could correct me on this I've studided the DCAU very carefuly. I wish I had a degree in it lol
Beast Machines is separate from beast wars. Different company worked on it. Different producers etc.
However Beast Machines is a part of The Beast Era Of Transformers.
Beast Machines is separate from beast wars. Different company worked on it. Different producers etc.
However Beast Machines is a part of The Beast Era Of Transformers.
horse luver xo
New member
Since I already commented on several items earlier, things that I don't have anything new to say I am going to skip over.
Pokemon
SURPRISINGLY this series didn't rank in Wizards OR IGNs list. I think it's probably far too low in this too. I'm really, truly, honestly not a fan of this series. I could never make myself sit down and watch a single complete episode (even as background noise) but I truly can not deny its cultural significance and to be blunt, its sheer sales it generated.
All that said, if we're talking about all those factors Pokemon should be a nudge higher, probably top 25. Depending on whos doing the list, I could easily see this being a top 10 in many cases.
Dragonball Z
I'd really, really, really love to think we could combine the cultural impact of DBZ with the filler removed story of DBZ Kai and rate that.
I really don't think I am unjustified in saying that DBZ may have been that show that had the most raw impact out of every show ever. There is most certainly a total paradigm shift between animation on before and after DBZ in the US.
It probably, honestly deserves a top 10 spot.
Avatar
Again, I feel like a broken record since this was said a few times in the thread now, but Avatar is not anime /facepalm.
Ironically though, this series being back to back to DBZ has some significance. I tend to think a lot of what Avatar is was inspired from DBZ. It was really the first time we ever had a situation where someone said "OK, lets take everything we learned from Anime, combine it with our own techniques and produce a series".
I think the results made for a very, very, very high quality product. I would LIKE to see this be a top 10 or top 25 title, but if I am applying all the factors I try to take into account evenly across the board, I'd probably have to say this series should be where it is if not a SNIGE higher. The series, while good, hasn't had a huge impact on animation nor has been a big product seller despite it having a superior story, animation, music usage etc.
Reboot
This is a series I LOVE. I'm really sad it doesn't place on Wizards or IGNs list at all. To me, Reboot is probably one of the most culturally significant series of our time if not technologically significant. Its the VERY FIRST 100% CG series and it ironically is based on what goes on inside your computer.
It's also one of the first series we've ever seen end out completely and came back to continue to tell it's stories without being "rebooted". In retrospect, the only other animation to do that was Johnny Quest (if I am not mistaken).
35 is probably a good placement for it.
Alvin & the Chipmunks
My biggest qualm is this one should probably be swapped with the Smurfs for a number of reasons. The first major one is NBC built their block around the Smurfs. While Alvin and the Chipmunks was also on NBC, it helped round out the block as opposed to actually being the keystone to it. Beyond that, Smurfs simply outlasted everyone and stayed in production longer while the Chipmunks ended up being repeated and stretched all over the place.
Thundercats
Man did this series not age well. Thats all I have to say in addition to my earlier comments!
Ren & Stimpy
I think I am just going to wait for John K to say his own piece/peace on this one if he's lurking right now.
Inspector Gadget
The only thing else I have to say about this one is I really miss Don Adams. He's an actor thats simply irreplaceable.
The Real Ghostbusters
I really feel obligated to reiterate how well this series aged. You could probably plop this series on a start up or even an established action block TODAY and expect it to perform well. Not super awesome, but it will perform!
7 seasons is also nothing to laugh at. I'm not precisely sure on it's toy sales, but I would be inclined to suspect that it might be in top 10 toy sales in the 80s and 90s.
Theres a few points from the radio show I need to point out though. First off, Dan Aykroyd and Harold Ramis have been trying to do a new movie since the late 90s or early 2000s. One of the bigger hold ups has been Bill Murry. He has equal steaks in the series along with Aykroyd and Ramis and LOATH sequels. He hasn't wanted to be a part of the series for a very long time and reasons I don't quiet understand, hasn't wanted to give up his rights to it either. This has really prevented any moving forward of the movie for a long time.
Recently, Murry finally relented and gave his thumbs up for a new series --- on a TV talk show no less after being almost grilled about it by the host. (I absolutely forgot what talk show it was, but he was there for an unrelated interview, I wanna say it was Leno).
That being said, I also have to correct GCR and iterate that the 2009 Ghostbusters game WAS NOT based on what the third movie was going to be. If anything, it was a filler story that fills in the gaps between the second movie to the present.
Ghostbusters Extreme *WAS* a candidate plot for the series (especially while it was running) in that the next movie would be something of a "passing the torch" movie. I'm pretty sure I read on G4 sometime in the last year that they moved away from that plot idea and that they stepped up to MAYBE wanting to make this a trilogy with Bill Murry's character only being a major part of the first movie.
Its hard to keep track on where they are at this point, but IIRC either they START production this summer or they STARTED last year in the summer. Time tables on this series seems to escape me because theres always "We'r starting! We're stopping, We're starting!" etc etc etc.
Garfield and Friends
Yep, I'm surprised his one made the list but not because its a bad series, it just seems like everyone forgets it. It might be high though.
Family Guy
Coming in at #21, I think this is one of the more realistic placements for the series. It's a great series, but it really has a lot of the "Hate me or love me" thing going on. This series does carry a mantle like reboot that it was a resurrected series thanks to the efforts on CN (well specifically [as]).
I think in order to get those numbers, you really have to break apart the series. Super Friends isn't a 10 season series. Super Friends breaks into:
Trying to clump them all together, like I said earlier, would be like trying to compare Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Justice League: New Frontier and Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths.
Yea, Bruce Timm worked on every single one of those but each one had different feels, different audiences, different sales they made etc etc.
This is really a great example when a wiki article becomes very misleading and thus my normal tag line "Wikipedia is a great reference, but it's only a way to start your research, not rely on".
Like I've suggested earlier in the thread, Super Powers did REMARKABLE. Thats what all the toy lines from the era are based on. Its one of the few toy lines I still own (That and MASK). Super Friends was a rocky road. It gets even more misleading because several of these series had periods were they were in premier next to each other.
This was really a messy time period for DC and animation :-|. Each one really should be measured on their own merits.
I'm not sure how much there is to fear about this just now. If Genny was appointed to work on the current Clone Wars series, I would think he would be in Lucas's pocket right this moment for the project.
The fact he wasn't makes me think that either:
A.) He has been working on penning scripts to do it now (less likely)
B.) The Star Wars franchise is kind if a luau just now and not in any rush to work out the next movie.
The last I heard on this was bit of a round table going on E3 2009 (last one I was at) when Bill Roper, Genndy Tartakovsky and George Lucas were talking about the future of the Franchise. It seemed Genndy was still a contender to take on that mantle, but that was 2 years ago and 2 seasons ago for Clone Wars. It really depends how happy Lucas is with the current series just now.
That series was really under rated. REALLY UNDER RATED. I enjoyed it a lot.
BTW, I have to ask, since you yourself obviously liked a few things on BKN, why no Roughneck Chronicles representation?
Pokemon
SURPRISINGLY this series didn't rank in Wizards OR IGNs list. I think it's probably far too low in this too. I'm really, truly, honestly not a fan of this series. I could never make myself sit down and watch a single complete episode (even as background noise) but I truly can not deny its cultural significance and to be blunt, its sheer sales it generated.
All that said, if we're talking about all those factors Pokemon should be a nudge higher, probably top 25. Depending on whos doing the list, I could easily see this being a top 10 in many cases.
Dragonball Z
I'd really, really, really love to think we could combine the cultural impact of DBZ with the filler removed story of DBZ Kai and rate that.
I really don't think I am unjustified in saying that DBZ may have been that show that had the most raw impact out of every show ever. There is most certainly a total paradigm shift between animation on before and after DBZ in the US.
It probably, honestly deserves a top 10 spot.
Avatar
Again, I feel like a broken record since this was said a few times in the thread now, but Avatar is not anime /facepalm.
Ironically though, this series being back to back to DBZ has some significance. I tend to think a lot of what Avatar is was inspired from DBZ. It was really the first time we ever had a situation where someone said "OK, lets take everything we learned from Anime, combine it with our own techniques and produce a series".
I think the results made for a very, very, very high quality product. I would LIKE to see this be a top 10 or top 25 title, but if I am applying all the factors I try to take into account evenly across the board, I'd probably have to say this series should be where it is if not a SNIGE higher. The series, while good, hasn't had a huge impact on animation nor has been a big product seller despite it having a superior story, animation, music usage etc.
Reboot
This is a series I LOVE. I'm really sad it doesn't place on Wizards or IGNs list at all. To me, Reboot is probably one of the most culturally significant series of our time if not technologically significant. Its the VERY FIRST 100% CG series and it ironically is based on what goes on inside your computer.
It's also one of the first series we've ever seen end out completely and came back to continue to tell it's stories without being "rebooted". In retrospect, the only other animation to do that was Johnny Quest (if I am not mistaken).
35 is probably a good placement for it.
Alvin & the Chipmunks
My biggest qualm is this one should probably be swapped with the Smurfs for a number of reasons. The first major one is NBC built their block around the Smurfs. While Alvin and the Chipmunks was also on NBC, it helped round out the block as opposed to actually being the keystone to it. Beyond that, Smurfs simply outlasted everyone and stayed in production longer while the Chipmunks ended up being repeated and stretched all over the place.
Thundercats
Man did this series not age well. Thats all I have to say in addition to my earlier comments!
Ren & Stimpy
I think I am just going to wait for John K to say his own piece/peace on this one if he's lurking right now.
Inspector Gadget
The only thing else I have to say about this one is I really miss Don Adams. He's an actor thats simply irreplaceable.
The Real Ghostbusters
I really feel obligated to reiterate how well this series aged. You could probably plop this series on a start up or even an established action block TODAY and expect it to perform well. Not super awesome, but it will perform!
7 seasons is also nothing to laugh at. I'm not precisely sure on it's toy sales, but I would be inclined to suspect that it might be in top 10 toy sales in the 80s and 90s.
Theres a few points from the radio show I need to point out though. First off, Dan Aykroyd and Harold Ramis have been trying to do a new movie since the late 90s or early 2000s. One of the bigger hold ups has been Bill Murry. He has equal steaks in the series along with Aykroyd and Ramis and LOATH sequels. He hasn't wanted to be a part of the series for a very long time and reasons I don't quiet understand, hasn't wanted to give up his rights to it either. This has really prevented any moving forward of the movie for a long time.
Recently, Murry finally relented and gave his thumbs up for a new series --- on a TV talk show no less after being almost grilled about it by the host. (I absolutely forgot what talk show it was, but he was there for an unrelated interview, I wanna say it was Leno).
That being said, I also have to correct GCR and iterate that the 2009 Ghostbusters game WAS NOT based on what the third movie was going to be. If anything, it was a filler story that fills in the gaps between the second movie to the present.
Ghostbusters Extreme *WAS* a candidate plot for the series (especially while it was running) in that the next movie would be something of a "passing the torch" movie. I'm pretty sure I read on G4 sometime in the last year that they moved away from that plot idea and that they stepped up to MAYBE wanting to make this a trilogy with Bill Murry's character only being a major part of the first movie.
Its hard to keep track on where they are at this point, but IIRC either they START production this summer or they STARTED last year in the summer. Time tables on this series seems to escape me because theres always "We'r starting! We're stopping, We're starting!" etc etc etc.
Garfield and Friends
Yep, I'm surprised his one made the list but not because its a bad series, it just seems like everyone forgets it. It might be high though.
Family Guy
Coming in at #21, I think this is one of the more realistic placements for the series. It's a great series, but it really has a lot of the "Hate me or love me" thing going on. This series does carry a mantle like reboot that it was a resurrected series thanks to the efforts on CN (well specifically [as]).
I think in order to get those numbers, you really have to break apart the series. Super Friends isn't a 10 season series. Super Friends breaks into:
- The All-New Super Friends Hour
- All-New Super Friends
- Challenge of the Super Friends
- The World's Greatest Super Friends
- Super Friends
- The Best of the Super Friends (reruns)
- Cancellation and the "lost episodes"
- Super Friends: The Legendary Super Powers Show
- The Super Powers Team: Galactic Guardians
Trying to clump them all together, like I said earlier, would be like trying to compare Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, Justice League: New Frontier and Justice League: Crisis on Two Earths.
Yea, Bruce Timm worked on every single one of those but each one had different feels, different audiences, different sales they made etc etc.
This is really a great example when a wiki article becomes very misleading and thus my normal tag line "Wikipedia is a great reference, but it's only a way to start your research, not rely on".
Like I've suggested earlier in the thread, Super Powers did REMARKABLE. Thats what all the toy lines from the era are based on. Its one of the few toy lines I still own (That and MASK). Super Friends was a rocky road. It gets even more misleading because several of these series had periods were they were in premier next to each other.
This was really a messy time period for DC and animation :-|. Each one really should be measured on their own merits.
I'm not sure how much there is to fear about this just now. If Genny was appointed to work on the current Clone Wars series, I would think he would be in Lucas's pocket right this moment for the project.
The fact he wasn't makes me think that either:
A.) He has been working on penning scripts to do it now (less likely)
B.) The Star Wars franchise is kind if a luau just now and not in any rush to work out the next movie.
The last I heard on this was bit of a round table going on E3 2009 (last one I was at) when Bill Roper, Genndy Tartakovsky and George Lucas were talking about the future of the Franchise. It seemed Genndy was still a contender to take on that mantle, but that was 2 years ago and 2 seasons ago for Clone Wars. It really depends how happy Lucas is with the current series just now.
That series was really under rated. REALLY UNDER RATED. I enjoyed it a lot.
BTW, I have to ask, since you yourself obviously liked a few things on BKN, why no Roughneck Chronicles representation?
SheLuvsDemarcus
New member
I am lost as to how this is a response to what you quoted there. I was asking where you get your info on the various shows television ratings. I wasn't making any comments on anything concerning the merits of Super Friends at all... 
Also, not sure where you came up with anything about Wiki, I hate wiki with a passion and as a researcher and a teacher I know all to well how bad using it is - again very confused here
Also, not sure where you came up with anything about Wiki, I hate wiki with a passion and as a researcher and a teacher I know all to well how bad using it is - again very confused here
JSJellyBean
New member
When you go and look at Superfriends on Wikipedia, it lists it as one show. Does that mean Wikipedia is right?
A lot of places don't take the time to get facts right. Bruce Timm himself said JLU was a new show with a new theme that had some carry over. He said they weren't unhappy wit the way JL went, they just wanted to try something new.
I'm pretty sure when the creator of a show says its a different series, its probably a different series.
A lot of places don't take the time to get facts right. Bruce Timm himself said JLU was a new show with a new theme that had some carry over. He said they weren't unhappy wit the way JL went, they just wanted to try something new.
I'm pretty sure when the creator of a show says its a different series, its probably a different series.
Twilight Princess 45
New member
Ah, I assumed you clumped them all together because if you check out Wiki, it gives you some basic information that assumes everything is one series.
The wiki page for it was ONCE UPON A TIME separated into each series. I know, because I'm the guy who did it >.< It's obviously no longer is.
As far as stat information, once you are looking for each series by itself, its really not that hard to find the info, but you will probably need to go back and look at published Neisan stuff that never got added to the website. Time Magazine in particular had a nice periodontal about it in the 80s.
Moreover, something you have to keep in mind when evaluating these series. As you probably noticed, theres a big gap in animation state side during the 70s. Essentially, as a nation, we had a BIG BOOM of animation in the 60s. The 70s went no where and by the time the 80s rolled around, our momentum in animation had slowed down so much we were still using a lot of concepts / technology from the 60s.
The stop gap in the 70s occurred in part because of sociological issues in media and in part because of the government was trying to figure out where they belonged in the landscape of TV. During the 70s there were so many regulations directed at animation that most the stuff that was on the TV at that point was there only because it met those requirements. There's a few exceptions, but many series from that period weren't stage setters or even series that polled well. Its probably fair to say that at that point, cartoons were truly only for kids. The various incarnations of Super Friends were truly one of these series.
Super Powers is when they really started pushing the buck and when the series really started to poll well and IMHO became important in the animation landscape.
I remember Borders used to have a really good book that talked about a lot of the retrospect of DC Animation in the 70s and highlighted a lot of these topics very well. It was entitled something like "DC Through TV Age" or something to that effect.
The wiki page for it was ONCE UPON A TIME separated into each series. I know, because I'm the guy who did it >.< It's obviously no longer is.
As far as stat information, once you are looking for each series by itself, its really not that hard to find the info, but you will probably need to go back and look at published Neisan stuff that never got added to the website. Time Magazine in particular had a nice periodontal about it in the 80s.
Moreover, something you have to keep in mind when evaluating these series. As you probably noticed, theres a big gap in animation state side during the 70s. Essentially, as a nation, we had a BIG BOOM of animation in the 60s. The 70s went no where and by the time the 80s rolled around, our momentum in animation had slowed down so much we were still using a lot of concepts / technology from the 60s.
The stop gap in the 70s occurred in part because of sociological issues in media and in part because of the government was trying to figure out where they belonged in the landscape of TV. During the 70s there were so many regulations directed at animation that most the stuff that was on the TV at that point was there only because it met those requirements. There's a few exceptions, but many series from that period weren't stage setters or even series that polled well. Its probably fair to say that at that point, cartoons were truly only for kids. The various incarnations of Super Friends were truly one of these series.
Super Powers is when they really started pushing the buck and when the series really started to poll well and IMHO became important in the animation landscape.
I remember Borders used to have a really good book that talked about a lot of the retrospect of DC Animation in the 70s and highlighted a lot of these topics very well. It was entitled something like "DC Through TV Age" or something to that effect.
According to IMDB (because I couldn't find much on Wikipedia) Beast Wars and Beast Machines both had Christopher J. Brough listed as the executive producer but all the other producers were different I suppose. Both series were animated and produced by Mainframe as well.
Sometimes a series can be considered an extension of the previous series and sometimes it shouldn't be due to drastic changes in the staff and the execution. At which point they can be in the same continuity but should not be considered the same series.
In that regard JL and JLU are one series to me and so is Beast Wars and Beast Machines and so is TMNT 2003, Fast Forward and Back to the Sewer.
On the flip side. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT are not the same series, Batman and Batman Beyond are not the same series and Armada, Energon and Cybertron are not the same series. All 3 examples are separate series in the same continuity as the other/s.
I guess you could argue Beast Wars and Beast Machines are not the same series but I don't see why you'd have to.
Sometimes a series can be considered an extension of the previous series and sometimes it shouldn't be due to drastic changes in the staff and the execution. At which point they can be in the same continuity but should not be considered the same series.
In that regard JL and JLU are one series to me and so is Beast Wars and Beast Machines and so is TMNT 2003, Fast Forward and Back to the Sewer.
On the flip side. Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT are not the same series, Batman and Batman Beyond are not the same series and Armada, Energon and Cybertron are not the same series. All 3 examples are separate series in the same continuity as the other/s.
I guess you could argue Beast Wars and Beast Machines are not the same series but I don't see why you'd have to.