Anime and sexism/feminism

That's sort of approaching the root of the problem, where men and women have essentially engineered each other to be the way they are, physically and mentally. It's the fault of every man and woman before us. No one should be surprised that the struggles against sexism are so difficult. We're not living in the past, so we do what we must for future equality, but it's like a chess game against our own human biology at times.

For some reason, Hartman Hips are coming to mind. Forget breasts, the hip to waist ratio is supposedly the most universally attractive body feature to men (after a cute face). Even there you'll find ample exceptions.

--Romey
 
I've seen every episode of Card Captor Sakura uncut, and I really, really don't see where do people get that this show was used to appeal to the lolicon crowd. None of the outfits were ever too revealing (most covered all the way down to the knees), nor there was never any fanservice shots or suggestive camera angles. It was simply an (extremely) sugarish sweet show.

As for Tomoyo filming Sakura, most people seem to write it off as Tomoyo being in love with Sakura (which is pretty obvious if you follow the series), but since the series never says it outright, it could really mean anything.

I think the closest to fanservice CCS had were all those "romantic" scenes with Touya and Yukito.
 
Im learning things I'm not sure a crazy goody-twoshoes like me should know.

Honestly I don't in the least find hips attractive, If i am in one of my rare moments of well, how should i put this......vanity, I would say I find the Overall petitness & length of the female figure attractive, not any certain body part or parts, but I still say the most Attractive thing in a woman is her personality, but then agian like ive said, I'M A weird one. yep.

& ive been thinking, isn't this thread overall pointless sure we can all rant about how Females our misrepresented & oversexualized in shonen/& Senin manga & how Males are (In a way) In shojo manga, but in the big scheme of things Arn't comics beased around Fantasy & don't we read them or watch the animes for a form of escapism. Givin in some cases its perverted but oh well, In the end this thread just tries to heard to throw reality & Politics in with Fantasy & thats just wrong the fact is anime is in its perverted stage, a sad but true fact & overall I think we can all deal with it as long as they have AWSOME ACTION & good story & comdey, yed it may not be as good as the classics but oh well, in the end although I support Equal portrayal for male & female characters in the end Anime is ficiton so we really should'nt make such a big deal out of it I guess, Its really no worse then US LIVE action media, or those crazy "Y-type" fangirls. (They scare, they scare me so!!!)
 
Someone was either trolling or sadly misinformed when they added that, then. The fact that other things have changed has little to do with the point in question.

--Romey
 
That turns on fangirls? Looks like a 12 yr. old with a sixpack.

What's wrong with a female character showing off "skin"? People get worked up about Sailor Moon being naked, but it's no big deal that Goku never wears a shirt, or prances about with his manhood out.

And one seems to mention some strong Go Nagai characters. Sure Sayaka isn't a good example, but you have characters like Cutie Honey, Kekko Kamen (hawr), Iron Virgin Jun, etc.

And how does fanservice = sexist? Cutie Honey is sexist because she gets naked all the time? Sure, let's ignore the fact she's a strong warrior who doesn't need a man. The fact she gets naked is sexist.
 
I think it kinda ties into what kenjisalk was saying about fanservice being lazy writing and appealing to the lowest common denominator

Perhaps fanservice isn't inherently sexist, but I the authorial intent neeRAB to be considered. In the case of Cutie Honey, well, I can't say cause I haven't seen it, but as a character, which was her greater appeal? Is it her strong warrior personality which the writers used to appeal to the audience, or did that take a back step to her body?
 
I think the example that most bothered me in recent memory was Naomi Misora from Death Note. She had more brains than just about anybody in the show up to the point that she was introduced, but her fiancee constantly reminRAB her that she's not an FBI agent any longer and even says something along the lines of "Once we get married and start a family you'll be too busy having babies to worry about such things." (Paraphrased, but that was the general gist.) And she just stanRAB there and takes it!
And then, when she's on the verge of figuring out who Kira is faster than anyone else in the show, she suddenly and inexplicably
makes a totally out-of-character lapse in judgment that allows Light to kill her, just to show the audience what a bastard he is.

Her place as the primary female character in the show is then taken over by Misa. FRICKING MISA. Weak.

Most of my favorite female characters seem to get a weak ending like that, just when they're on the verge of becoming beyond awesome.

Casca (Berserk): She's the de facto commander of the Hawks and has Guts totally whipped.
Rape her retarded!

Sakuraoka (Gantz): She's the only character who managed to permanently damage the Big Bad of the mission, and looks like she's on the verge of killing it.
FIRE THE OPPRESSION LASERS!



To be fair, while Yoko from GL does wear a spectacularly fanservice-y outfit, she's also portrayed as a competent woman and is at least as interesting as any other character from that show besides Kamina and Simon.



I've mentioned this before, but this can be a bit of a Catch-22. If a female character is flawed, then she's a useless token female. But if she's flawless, she's an annoying overpowered Mary Sue.
 
The outfits in CCS is Clamp both capitalizing on being toyetic for young girls as more costumes results in more toys, and also indulging themselves as manga-ka, as more outfits equals more variety and an outlet for more creativity. Additionally, by making the outfits outfits, rather than a transformation, it's one less element that could be exploited at direct service element (no quasi-nude magical transformation.)

I will say that it was the synthesis of characters like Sakura from CCS with characters like Ruri from Nadesico (mixed with the fact that in 1998 the US and UN finally got Japan to ban real child porn after years of pressure and threats of sanctions,) that launched this whole lolicon boom. Ruri created the idolism around a younger character, and Sakura helped to create the template for the perfect Mary Sue Kawaii Moe character to idolize. The heavy merchandizing of both helped to prove it could be profitable.
 
Just Japanese? Every last magical girl show is full of sexist tripe, even the not really magical girl stuff like Jem. It's stuffed with that garbage. The tropes of the genre lend itself to that sort of debasment and stereotyping, which is why the few good magical girl shows aren't magical girl shows in the pure sense, but take their cues from other genres.
 
I think there is a balance that can be found, but due to cultural differences, Japan has a long way to go in terms of women's sufferage, from a pop culture standpoint.

I get sick of people listing characters like Orihime or Sakura (from Naruto) and the like as positive female characters, and I really bask in how low the community's standarRAB are. Granted, most of the people who say that are just fanboys who think they're super kawaii, but they're symptoms of the overall problem.

If I end up having a daughter, I'm going to be very selective on what type of programming she's going to be exposed to, and at this point, a majority of anime is definitely off-limits. Kino's Journey is one of those rare exceptions I'll make, because I think she's a wonderful role-model for young women.

I hope that as their culture continues to westernize, more positive, complex, realistic female characters will pop up more and more. We're starting to see some progress in the last couple of years, but they're not quite there yet.
 
I'd agree there too, and GunxSword is definitely a very good show that unfortunately slipped past a lot of radars.

Curiously enough, the series was directed by Goro Taniguchi, who also did Code Geass, and both of those shows also share the character designer from Godannar (who also worked on GaoGaiGar), Takahiro Kimura. CLAMP came up with the original designs for Code Geass, as most people know, but they were adapted for animation purposes by him. Probably helps explain part of the inclination for fanservice all those shows (and, now that I think about it, the GaoGaiGar Final OVAs more than the series) have in common, though Godannar is the worst offender in that category by several miles of lined up skyscrapers.

Doesn't stop that show from being good, in my opinion, though GunxSword is probably better overall.
 
Regarding hips and men in general, it's not the body part, it's the proportion. I doubt most of the men involved in those studies of attraction had anything reserabling a hip fetish.

--Romey
 
Yeah. Little girls have played dress-up since the dawn of time. It's why all the mahou shojou shows had similar transformations and frilly costumes - to appeal to *their* tastes and *their* fantasies.
 
I believe the point being made is that people can desire to be strong and intelligent for reasons not related to vanity or pleasing others.

To rehash my points, being strong ensures that you have better health (effective lungs and high stamina). Being intelligent allows for you to make or repair an electronic device with relative ease. Plus intelligence allows for you to communicate with someone who doesn't speak your language or allow for you to enter a health related business.

But is there any reason to look beautiful for other reasons than boosting for reasons of vanity or trying to validate yourself to a peer or significant other?
 
First of all, WITCH was awesome. The comic is even more awesome.

Second,

(TFS Nappa voice)I get it, HC!


Just to check, this isn't supposed to be saying that Elfen Lied was bad is it? (Though now, that I know it was the same company I feel...somewhat ashamed.....)
 
Working in a Western environment does not mean, necessarily, that you hold Western viewpoints. Lots of people revert back to their native way of life the second they leave the office each day.
 
I love Godannar. I mean, the bounciness factor was out of control, but the story always had great heart.

Why more people don't talk about GunXSword, I dunno. It's a giant robot show yeah, but it was pretty dark and brutal at times. The main characters were drawn out and developed very well, and the build-up to the third act as well as the final act itself was ridiculously satisfying.

And the show had a ton of service, as well as one of those episodes dedicated to putting all the females into tight, skimpy bathing suits. But it was hilarious , and it actually served a purpose to the story.

The female characters in Godannar were also very strong characters. Carmen 99, .
 
Bingo, though the transformation sequences in magical girl anime are also often a metaphor for becoming an adult, so the lack of a transformation (in terms of the actual person transforming,) in fact means that Sakura herself is already empowered as a kid. It's subtle, but brilliant because the implication is that a girl doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice being a girl to effect change. A very positive message if ever there was one, and arguably so forward thinking as to be post-feminist.

In fact, manga-ka like the CLAMP team and Yoshitoshi aBE and directors like Miyazaki, Takahata and even Shinichiro Watanabe really give me faith that in the long term, those mediums will effect positive social change in Japan.

For every stupid otaku who objectifies Sakura or Chihiro, there are little girls who realize they can be strong, independent and not sacrifice their identity in the process. Maybe as that kind of character becomes the norm in those mediums, you'll generate long term, large scale social change.
 
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