That just gets me back to my main point, just because there are examples of sexism in a work does not make the work sexist. The situation between Raye and Naomi is commonplace in society. The writers not going out of their way to put it in a negative light doesn't make it sexist.
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Anime and sexism/feminism
- Thread starter Farmall Boy
- Start date
xx_dustin_xx
New member
I, personally, feel that I'd be more okay with fanservice if it were more equal opportunity.
Some people would say that there is plenty of male fanservice in various comics/manga, but it's not the same. Most of what people seem to consider "manservice" is always so tongue-in-cheek and silly, that I can't take it seriously at all. Like the idea of a guy being genuinely attractive and sexy is laughable to most of the viewership, and that's sad.
You don't see much in the way of genuine sex appeal with guys, if it isn't some over-the-top shoujo bubble bullcrap or done for yuks. Sorry guys, Kamina doesn't count.
Until I see an equal amount of sexy awesome guys being genuinely sexy and awesome, then I'm going to cry foul.
The anime fanbase both in Japan and abroad has always been mainly a boys club, and we've come a long way from the almost zero female and gay vieweship of the past, but we're also not quite there yet.
Some people would say that there is plenty of male fanservice in various comics/manga, but it's not the same. Most of what people seem to consider "manservice" is always so tongue-in-cheek and silly, that I can't take it seriously at all. Like the idea of a guy being genuinely attractive and sexy is laughable to most of the viewership, and that's sad.
You don't see much in the way of genuine sex appeal with guys, if it isn't some over-the-top shoujo bubble bullcrap or done for yuks. Sorry guys, Kamina doesn't count.
Until I see an equal amount of sexy awesome guys being genuinely sexy and awesome, then I'm going to cry foul.
The anime fanbase both in Japan and abroad has always been mainly a boys club, and we've come a long way from the almost zero female and gay vieweship of the past, but we're also not quite there yet.
Which would be one thing if they were both traditional Japanese characters who adhere to traditional Eastern viewpoints on such things. However, they're both of mixed Japanese and American descent, and more importantly, Raye is an FBI agent and Naomi is former FBI. If Naomi were committed to being THAT traditionally Japanese, that's not a career she would have chosen for herself in the first place.
They presumably met through work, in a Western environment. They both lived in America before Raye was assigned to Japan for the Kira case, and it's explicitly stated that they plan to live in America after they're married. Now, given all that, I think it's a little ridiculous that their relationship is portrayed as 100% traditionally Japanese, with progressive Western attitudes about gender equality apparently completely absent from either of their minRABets.
The whole subplot would have been far more interesting if she had had more realistic modern attitudes toward gender roles, consistent with the rest of her background, and if the plot had backed that up in some way. Instead, she is shown as stepping outside of the traditional role of woman as homemaker, and then, despite her supposed intelligence,
Now, come on. I can't be the only one who thinks that's pretty messed up.
They presumably met through work, in a Western environment. They both lived in America before Raye was assigned to Japan for the Kira case, and it's explicitly stated that they plan to live in America after they're married. Now, given all that, I think it's a little ridiculous that their relationship is portrayed as 100% traditionally Japanese, with progressive Western attitudes about gender equality apparently completely absent from either of their minRABets.
The whole subplot would have been far more interesting if she had had more realistic modern attitudes toward gender roles, consistent with the rest of her background, and if the plot had backed that up in some way. Instead, she is shown as stepping outside of the traditional role of woman as homemaker, and then, despite her supposed intelligence,
making a stupid mistake that completely contradicts everything that's been shown about her character up until that point, and dying for it.
I don't watch fanservicy/fantasy-fulfillment series, so I guess you could say that. I detest shows like Tenchi, He Is My Master, Gurren Lagaan, and similar shows where the females tend to just be objects for guys to oogle. Part of it is sexism, I suppose,but the other part is also because they're just bad characters and their only appeal is their body.
Of course. Both Japan and the west have sexism problems, just different ones. In a lot of Japanese shows, the females tend to be extremely submissive and neglected, and if they're given the spotlight, it's usually focused on their sexuality and appealing to male fantasy (like, say, the 'tough bad girl in skimpy clothes' hero like Revy in Black Lagoon)
The west does the "tough bad girl in skimpy clothes" archetype as well, though not really in their cartoons (more their live-action stuff) and while it also neglects female characters in boy shows (token females in a male-dominated cast), this was more true in the older days. Now, it also suffers from the reverse of what tenRAB to happen in Japanese animation; females who tend to just be super perfect in every way and are more or less Mary Sues. These girls are toted as positive female role models, but are flawless (or only have a flaw for one episode that pertains to the plot) and tend to outshine the males, even if there's no logically reason why, and give off the "girls power" vibe.
When it comes down to it, most media is sexist. Very few shows strive to actually balance everything out, and the ones that do earn my applause.
Of course. Both Japan and the west have sexism problems, just different ones. In a lot of Japanese shows, the females tend to be extremely submissive and neglected, and if they're given the spotlight, it's usually focused on their sexuality and appealing to male fantasy (like, say, the 'tough bad girl in skimpy clothes' hero like Revy in Black Lagoon)
The west does the "tough bad girl in skimpy clothes" archetype as well, though not really in their cartoons (more their live-action stuff) and while it also neglects female characters in boy shows (token females in a male-dominated cast), this was more true in the older days. Now, it also suffers from the reverse of what tenRAB to happen in Japanese animation; females who tend to just be super perfect in every way and are more or less Mary Sues. These girls are toted as positive female role models, but are flawless (or only have a flaw for one episode that pertains to the plot) and tend to outshine the males, even if there's no logically reason why, and give off the "girls power" vibe.
When it comes down to it, most media is sexist. Very few shows strive to actually balance everything out, and the ones that do earn my applause.
Sojib Sarkar
New member
Generally speaking I don't ask for fanservice and don't look kindly towarRAB other forms of sexism. In fact, a show will get extra points from me if they are avoided or reduced to their minimum expressions.
Legend of Galactic Heroes doesn't have many females in its huge cast of characters, but those few that do play an active role in the events are presented as capable individuals in their own right. Jessica EdwarRAB, Hildegard von Mariendorf and Frederica Greenhill come to mind. Reinhard's sister Annerose may qualify too, though she is placed in somewhat of a more traditional position by comparison. In addition, I can only vaguely remeraber seeing one fanservice-y scene in the main 110 episodes, so that's essentially non-existent.
At the same time, I won't drop a series with fanservice or some sexist elements until there are greater problems involved. Unless the series is already so much of a waste of time that the fanservice and sexism only makes it worse. The thing is, there has to be something else, good or bad, to make me decide.
Gurren Lagann is a great show, and I like Yoko as a character too, but the fact is she and other female characters in the series also do fanservice duty. It doesn't bother me at all or at most only momentarily, but I can understand it can get in the way of someone else's enjoyment.
You could say, in all honesty, that the series works both ways, and it's up to the audience and their own standarRAB to decide whether they're bothered by it or not.
If you want an extreme example, Godannar is a pretty good Super Robot show. Some of the female characters, especially the pilots, get reasonable development and the overall story, while not worthy of any kind of award, is acceptable for the genre. But the show is all fanservice, all the time. I am not exaggerating. Almost all the girls have huge breasts and the show has the highest concentration of blatant fanservice I've seen in years, at least outside of Kanokon or outright hentai.
If I ever let the fanservice in Gurren Lagann, the first season of Gundam 00 (the second one has significantly reduced it) or, say, either season of Code Geass seriously bother me, I'd literally have to blind myself while watching Godannar. Yet I did not and was able to appreciate the show as a whole in spite of that, even if it's ridiculously sexist. Did I make the right decision? I think so, but others can definitely disagree.
Legend of Galactic Heroes doesn't have many females in its huge cast of characters, but those few that do play an active role in the events are presented as capable individuals in their own right. Jessica EdwarRAB, Hildegard von Mariendorf and Frederica Greenhill come to mind. Reinhard's sister Annerose may qualify too, though she is placed in somewhat of a more traditional position by comparison. In addition, I can only vaguely remeraber seeing one fanservice-y scene in the main 110 episodes, so that's essentially non-existent.
At the same time, I won't drop a series with fanservice or some sexist elements until there are greater problems involved. Unless the series is already so much of a waste of time that the fanservice and sexism only makes it worse. The thing is, there has to be something else, good or bad, to make me decide.
Gurren Lagann is a great show, and I like Yoko as a character too, but the fact is she and other female characters in the series also do fanservice duty. It doesn't bother me at all or at most only momentarily, but I can understand it can get in the way of someone else's enjoyment.
You could say, in all honesty, that the series works both ways, and it's up to the audience and their own standarRAB to decide whether they're bothered by it or not.
If you want an extreme example, Godannar is a pretty good Super Robot show. Some of the female characters, especially the pilots, get reasonable development and the overall story, while not worthy of any kind of award, is acceptable for the genre. But the show is all fanservice, all the time. I am not exaggerating. Almost all the girls have huge breasts and the show has the highest concentration of blatant fanservice I've seen in years, at least outside of Kanokon or outright hentai.
If I ever let the fanservice in Gurren Lagann, the first season of Gundam 00 (the second one has significantly reduced it) or, say, either season of Code Geass seriously bother me, I'd literally have to blind myself while watching Godannar. Yet I did not and was able to appreciate the show as a whole in spite of that, even if it's ridiculously sexist. Did I make the right decision? I think so, but others can definitely disagree.
SuMiRe~cHaN *IcE mUnCh*
New member
If there is ever anything wrong with anime, Hayao Miyazaki will always be there to voice his opinion against it, and prove it in his films, some of the least sexist anime films ever.
Literary Heroin
New member
^ I'm gonna be honest, I don't get your joke.
Anyway, it's not like shows like Queen's Blade are the only ones to get sequels. Fullmetal Alchemist got a sequel, and I wouldn't consider that show sexist or exploitative to women. Likewise, there were plenty of fanservice-heavy shows that never got sequels.
Anyway, it's not like shows like Queen's Blade are the only ones to get sequels. Fullmetal Alchemist got a sequel, and I wouldn't consider that show sexist or exploitative to women. Likewise, there were plenty of fanservice-heavy shows that never got sequels.
The main problem is sexism has been around for thousanRAB of years, and is so integrated into our culture that short of humanity dying off and starting over again, it's impossible to remove it. A lot of blatantly sexist things go unnoticed by even the most hardcore feminist simply because it's been considered 'normal' in our society to act and behave that way for thousanRAB of years. Now, I'd like to think we might get a little better, which at least allows for more works to feature female characters who aren't sex syrabols, but that concept is normal for people, and each example of an average, developed girl who has an absurd desire keep her clothes on will be met with fifty girls in their bikinis shooting things up; and the popularity of her (or lack thereof) will be a testament to why it won't ever become a common thing.
randyj4ever
New member
Anime would be dull and boring without it.
*pours gasoline into thread, throws lighted match into it*
*pours gasoline into thread, throws lighted match into it*
sweetshygirl27
New member
The full 1988 interview with Miyazaki is also available for those interested.
What is a bit disheartening is the fact Miyazaki was admitting, even at such an early date, that by making his own female characters "lovely" they would inevitably become fuel for those with a lolicon complex.
And yet he also asked an interesting question:
At the same time, there seems to be an alternative, more critical view of Miyazaki, partially dealing with the issue at hand, from an interview with Yamamoto Yutaka.
I don't endorse this point of view myself, since it does seem evident that Miyazaki was aware of what was going on and did talk about it as demonstrated by the previous interview, but I remerabered reading it and it's interesting to bring it up in light of the debate.
What is a bit disheartening is the fact Miyazaki was admitting, even at such an early date, that by making his own female characters "lovely" they would inevitably become fuel for those with a lolicon complex.
And yet he also asked an interesting question:
At the same time, there seems to be an alternative, more critical view of Miyazaki, partially dealing with the issue at hand, from an interview with Yamamoto Yutaka.
I don't endorse this point of view myself, since it does seem evident that Miyazaki was aware of what was going on and did talk about it as demonstrated by the previous interview, but I remerabered reading it and it's interesting to bring it up in light of the debate.
Oh, I loved Godannar. Does that make me sexist?
Yes, it was a fanservice vehicle. The whole thing was, the females were the main characters, even if they were shown with next to nothing. We've all seen the infamous speech GIF. That doesn't get to the heart of her character being a capable commander that doesn't need any man to tell her what to do.
Yes, it was a fanservice vehicle. The whole thing was, the females were the main characters, even if they were shown with next to nothing. We've all seen the infamous speech GIF. That doesn't get to the heart of her character being a capable commander that doesn't need any man to tell her what to do.
Camo13ammo
New member
I find it kind of ironic that the guy behind series such as Haruhi Suzumiya, Lucky Star and Kannagi is complaining about moe when it's been his bread and butter. Unless this is a case of 'I need the money so I'll do the work', it's hypocritical to complain about an angle you've significantly perpetuated.
Ms. Sutton
New member
Yeah, but the point of the over-idealized men in many shoujo/josei manga is that it's the analogue to the hyper-sexualized women shonen/seinen manga. Yes, how you go about achieve the effect is different, but the effect - an unrealistic ideal - is the same. Yes, shoujo fanservice falls into some very specific and often bland archetypes, but so does seinen fanservice.
Further still, what I would consider perhaps even more blatantly sexist or anti-feminist is the trend in shoujo series of Mary Sue characters who are basically always being saved by pretty boys who seem flawless (or are who are a bit flawed, but who will be saved by the love of their devoted girlfriend.) I mean, tons of shoujo manga feature the cute girl who can cook and clean, but rarely do you get the ghibli-type heroines who take on challenges without being objectified or transformed.
Even in josei titles which tend to be a lot better showing realistic characters and relationships, and which often have a strong, independent female lead, you also not only still get cultural stigmas that are reflected in the work (the heroine may be very capable, but she's still worried about being single and 25, something considered completely normal in a lot of the west) but also explicitly bizarre elements that seem plain offensive (Mayu Shinjo's prospensity for putting rape into any context but "this is bad, horrible and wrong" in her manga which are all aimed at female teens and 20-something is mindboggling.) I mean, to be fair their are josei authors who really do make some very positive, forward thinking manga that really espouse a more modern point of view, but it's not necessarily common, and it's as much if not more problematic than fanservice in shonen and seinen works in some ways, as it's a message being directly communicated to that the female audience as "this is okay."
Further still, what I would consider perhaps even more blatantly sexist or anti-feminist is the trend in shoujo series of Mary Sue characters who are basically always being saved by pretty boys who seem flawless (or are who are a bit flawed, but who will be saved by the love of their devoted girlfriend.) I mean, tons of shoujo manga feature the cute girl who can cook and clean, but rarely do you get the ghibli-type heroines who take on challenges without being objectified or transformed.
Even in josei titles which tend to be a lot better showing realistic characters and relationships, and which often have a strong, independent female lead, you also not only still get cultural stigmas that are reflected in the work (the heroine may be very capable, but she's still worried about being single and 25, something considered completely normal in a lot of the west) but also explicitly bizarre elements that seem plain offensive (Mayu Shinjo's prospensity for putting rape into any context but "this is bad, horrible and wrong" in her manga which are all aimed at female teens and 20-something is mindboggling.) I mean, to be fair their are josei authors who really do make some very positive, forward thinking manga that really espouse a more modern point of view, but it's not necessarily common, and it's as much if not more problematic than fanservice in shonen and seinen works in some ways, as it's a message being directly communicated to that the female audience as "this is okay."
Christropher Brando
New member
I'm surprised no one's chimed in about this (unless I've missed it somewhere). I've read the first handful of official translations, and I've skimmed over a few fan-translations for comparison. Everything has been solidly from Lina's POV. I can't rule out that a later segment might be narrated by Gourry, but even if that's so, it would be too late in the story to call Lina's role in the anime a "change".
--Romey
--Romey
Greek Gamer
New member
That's true enough and he does come off as a bit stuck-up, in addition, but any irony or even potential hypocrisy there wouldn't mean that his arguments can't be considered interesting as such.
His angle, at least as he presents it, seems to be striving for creating something that can be enjoyed by more people than just the increasingly exclusive otaku sectors. He thus seems to be rejecting the exclusivity created by the current moe trend as opposed to the presence of such elements in general. I haven't seen a second of Kannagi, for instance, but he claims that his use of humor there had a more universal appeal, as opposed to Lucky Star's.
His angle, at least as he presents it, seems to be striving for creating something that can be enjoyed by more people than just the increasingly exclusive otaku sectors. He thus seems to be rejecting the exclusivity created by the current moe trend as opposed to the presence of such elements in general. I haven't seen a second of Kannagi, for instance, but he claims that his use of humor there had a more universal appeal, as opposed to Lucky Star's.
CrossFireX
New member
You're right that when you set the ideas and the individual apart, the ideas still hold up strongly. I do agree with him that the otaku culture has a dominant inferiority complex which makes it harsh and unforgiving to newcomers and outsiders. Even in the English speaking fandom that's true, as the blogger points out. I've encountered various folks who say crap like "Because I know Japanese and you don't, all your criticisms are invalid". It's this underground community of obsessives desperate to make themselves look better than others with the same interests. It's one of my darkest fears to ever become like that. Thankfully there are folks I've met here and elsewhere who actively buck that trend.