Would it have been necessary to end the Pokemon series at Kanto?

Why is it that every single Pokemon thread turns into a debate of Classic Vs. New?

I liked both parts of the series, (I loved Kanto and Orange IslanRAB as much as everyone else did), yet I also like the newer arcs.

Can't we all just agree the Johto saga was crap and like everything else?
 
Yeah, she wasn't nearly as good as battling as she should have been, mainly because they stupidly decided to make her not the full-fledged Cerulean gym leader. But whereas May and Dawn may be better than her when it comes to battles (contest-based that is), she was more useful than them in all other areas. Like when she helped get everyone out of the sunken SS Anne, compromised with an angry Tentacruel to save an entire city, and healed Ash and Tracey when they got poisoned by a Vileplume. Compare that to May or Dawn, who stood back when there was real danger and let Ash hog all the heroic stuff.



I actually will agree that Misty had a really weak goal and that the coordinator's goals and struggles were done better. But the writers only put more effort into May and Dawn (and their contests) in comparission to many of the other stale characters that plague the series. And overall, the writers still consider the females just fanservice that can be easily thrown away once they've served their purpose. It's not like they hold them up to any high standarRAB.

And no, I don't think I'd like to see Brock doing contests. I'd rather he just leave the show.



We all agree that the Johto saga was crap. The problem with "liking everything else" is that Johto is what killed all interest and quality in the show... and it never really got back on track afterwarRAB. Sure, they've introduced some interesting new characters and stories that Johto lacked, but it's overall the same repetitive anime it was in Johto. I mean, Sinnoh is currently dragging on just as long as Johto, if not longer. And opposite to Johto's endless filler, Sinnoh is putting in way too much overcomplications in every episode, which is just as annoying. Sorry to those who enjoy it, but I honestly think post first-season Pokemon has earned it's bad reputation.

Sorry for this post. Once more, screw this thread, I'm going home (for real this time, I promise!)
 
I beg to differ. I think Misty’s greatest display of skill wasn’t until Johto. The Seaking Contest and her battles in the Whirl Cup showed good skill but even then she beat Ash by a fluke from Psyduck. Then there was her victory with the Wild Golduck in season two but that wasn’t really her Pokemon... Other than that she just battled Team Rocket sometimes and competed in the Princess Tournament with Ash and Brock’s Pokemon, ultimately winning by another Psyduck fluke. Its hard to judge her battling skills. Dawn on the other hand had numerous battles. Sure she loses a lot but I think her four Contest wins are a greater display of skill than most of Mistys best battles. We also got to see her defeat and capture Buneary, Pachirisu, and Buizel (which Ash and Zoey lost to). She taught Piplup to store energy for its Peck attack. Taught her Pokemon the Spinning Dodge technique and also taught Ash how to do it which helped him win his rematch against Roark. She taught Arabipom Double Hit and Buizel to have greater water control with its Aqua Jet. She also beat May who had a lot more experience than her. Not to much all her training to perfect Contest moves.

That’s a good point. I admittedly hate pre-Johto Misty. I never liked her attitude and her Pokemon didnt really stand out other than Psyduck. I did like the sibling stuff however.

I agree that most of Dawn’s Contests aren’t as good as May’s but I wouldn’t say that makes her a worse character. I think her character benefits from her losing and having to struggle more than May. It adRAB more emotional drama and realism to the show. I really liked those moments when she was crying after her lost to Zoey and her Mom told her to grow up and stop calling her so much and to talk to her frienRAB instead. Then that time after her string of defeats when she didn’t feel like pursuing contests and wanted to take a break. When she met Maylene she related to her situation and that helped her to gain more confidence in herself. Furthermore, that time where she couldn’t handle Pachirisu and had to release it for awhile. She didn’t know if she was a good enough trainer to raise it and let it do the deciding in the end. Also, that episode where she bonded with Piplup after finally realizing it didn’t want to evolve. She also had to show her disobedient Mamoswine she cared for it using knowledge she learned from Brock to help it recover from an injury. There was another episode where Dawn and Ash had to settle their differences and come up with a strategy together so that they could beat the twins. Not to mention when Zoey taught her the lesson of her Pokemon needing to be the star attraction in appeals rounRAB. I think Dawn went through a lot more turmoil as a trainer than Misty or May and that adRAB to her growth. Her bond with her Pokemon also seems more prevalent.
 
I thought you were done with this thread.

Shifting focus to the original question, it wasn't necessary to end at Kanto and while seeing the end of Ash's tale would be nice, if it had ended with him losing the league, that would've probably been an even bigger disappointment. It's actually nice to see him improve in his skills, even if he still hasn't won a league or battled a Champion.

I also find May and Dawn to be far more interesting than the other tagalongs that joined Ash. Just like him, they have a clear goal and we see them develop as trainers. It's especially interesting since both took clear inspiration from him but eventually phase out his methoRAB for a style all their own.
 
Of course. I'm not saying that the first season was a masterpiece. But to restate some comments from a post brought up in an earlier thread:

1. Back when we watched the first season, when it wasn't new viewers weren't wondering when the show would end or that it was on for too long.

2. The first season had more character intros and episodes to contribute to the plot rather than relying on the same exact formula. Lowering the redundancy even further.

But I suppose it helps to put yourself (not you specifically) to think about it from the perspective of a viewer watching the Kanto season when it was the only season.



The point of the thread is to ask if the show's length would be more tolerable if they did a cast change each season/year as opposed to keeping the main cast year after year. Thus allowing the character's story to end but giving the series a means to continue. Pretty much having the proverbial cake and getting to eat it too.



Pikachu could easily be incorporated into other seasons, but would Ash's departure at the time have been a marketing problem?



From what I see from Marinite's comment, the problem is that Misty would rarely have anything to contribute other than being the main female protagonist. It's not so much that May and Dawn participate in contests, but the fact that they do something other than just following Ash and Brock around.



That largely depenRAB on if the first season was going to play out exactly the same. Hasn't it been specified on whether or not he would have lost if the show didn't receive the attention it did then and still does?
 
Financially? No. Hoenn and Sinnoh have re-energized the franchise and turned it back into the mega-franchise it once was, as the anime still gets high ratings and the movies generally manage to be at or near the top as far as anime movies go (when there isn't a Miyazaki movie anyway).

The one thing Johto did right was improve Misty's lineup, as Poliwhirl/toed and Corsola got more screentime/development than Staryu, Starmie, Goldeen, and Horsea ever had.

As far as Sinnoh goes, it seems like the writers also feel as though Ash and Brock have run their course. It's not quite as obvious here in the States, but most of Sinnoh has been The Dawn Show with Ash and Brock, especially with the opening and ending themes. Not to mention, Dawn's been getting more than the lion's share of spotlight episodes. Ash's spotlight episodes have either been about Paul, fighting a Gym Leader, having one of his Pok
 
The issue I'm having is that it just feels to old with Ash now. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Ash a lot and I like how it's a trainer who travels to different regions but thinking about it, maybe having Ash end at Kanto and starting a new story in Johto about Gold would of been more better, and then after Gold it would of been the Ruby/Sapphire and etc. I enjoy seeing new trainers get different teams with different characters and what not. Yet Pokemon will probbaly keep Ash until I'm a late adult. >_> Sad enough to say. I've read about the manga and it sounRAB thousand times more better than the anime.
 
Nor was it on for 10+ years to be unacceptable at that point.




Here we go with everyone's favorite cop out.



Yeah...tackling a Flame Wheel while using a grass type is improvement. The only thing that was impressive was the counter shield, and even then THAT failed later on.

Quite frankly, im tired of Gym Battles being the EXCLUSIVE AND ONLY VIABLE PROOF of how Ash's skills are determined. I look at his fights against Paul, a guy he's fought multiple and am erabarrassed to even think I could root for this guy. You have to take into account every battle Ash has been in, not just gym battles.

Then again, considering the millions of episodes there are, no one can recall those fights.



*skims over thread*

Would it possible for you to absorb your own morals?



Maybe



Ok, THAT I do not believe. Since the series has a completely different director and appears to try and go into a different direction as well, I expect more, fresh plots. Regardless of the COTD format being a staple, going back and using a plot thats already been WELL resolved before (Pikachu CLEARLY did not want to evolve back then, why he? would now is anyone's guess, plus it's status quo. Pikachu being the mascot would have to stay pikachu) is pure laziness.



That justifies wasting production to create an entire 22min. episode to explain bs that occured 10 years prior? Here's a smarter idea. It's called rearing older episodes for everyone's viewing pleasure. Or how about...yah know, have an irrelevant episode explain in at least 5 mins why Pikachu refuses to evolve via flash backs. The former would be a better idea, because it gives people a chance to see the actual occurence take place. Is there something preventing the new kiRAB from seeing the older episodes or is the studio not allowed to reair the older episodes in a special "classic edition" pokemon series or what not?



And? This also justifies reusing a plot point?



And with those statistics, I should not expect him to lose so pathetically to one person time after time again. That and I shouldn't expect to see him lose to more than one Gym leader each region he visits. Because of this very experience he has. But no, lets counter Guillotine with Steel Wing or Flame Wheel with a Grass type Tackle. I'd be surprised if he lucked out on those league battles as much as the gym battles in the first saga looking at these fights. Thats where I believe his skill is diminished. Periodically, he can come and place high in tournaments, but if you're making the same stupid mistakes (some even WORSE than before) then your previous accomplishments don't say much. It even makes people doubt your actual abilities and give the assumption that you lucked out a huge majority of the time. If I was promoting a champion level Soul Calibur player who won a world championship 3 years in a row, and got into a match with an intermediate player and lost due to simple mistakes being made consistently, I would be erabarrassed.
 
Would 2-5 different characters make that much of a difference in quality? Take for example the Raikou Special with Jimmy, Marina, and Vincet. I liked it but the characters didn't seem any more exciting or better written than Ash and co. I think the show would mostly remain the same with a different cast. Of course the Pokemon roster might be a bit different and the protagonist might actually win a league but other than that I think we'd pretty much be watching the same episodes that are shown today. That might make it a better series for some people but not by leaps and bounRAB.
 
I think we all agree Ash's story should be wrapped up at some point. 600+ episodes is insane for a single character.

I think the general problem is that Pokemon could theoretically go on for yet another 10 years from now. Its scary that Ash could still be around in the year 2020.

You can tell your grandkiRAB how you used to watch Kanto back in the day.
 
Did you simply forget or glaze over the fact that Paul has been shown to be just as accomplished as Ash is in terms of regional victories?

He's traveled just as long as he has, collected the same amount of badges and raised just as many Pokemon that he freely switches up whenever he feels appropriate. He's had the same amount of experience, with the major difference being the training philosophy between both their methoRAB. Ash trains his team to appeal to their advantages, yet connects with them on a personal level because he believes they can only win if they fight as a unit. Paul trains his team as individual soldiers/weapons, keeping the strongest ones and discarding the less-fortunate ones. He can see potential in some of them, but doesn't have the patience to help them grow, like Chimchar.

Because of that difference, you can easily see why Ash has lost multiple times to Paul. Paul absolutely pushes his team to their limits, doing whatver is necessary to win the match. Ash doesn't and relies mainly on spur of the moment circumstance to dictate his strategy. So far it hasn't worked, and he's been showing signs of changing his methoRAB to improve in battles, but he seems unwilling to adopt Paul's style because it goes against his own beliefs, and would ultimately prove he was wrong.

and that's the dynamic that makes their rivalry so interesting.
 
Personally I think it's a given Ash will be in the fifth generation of the anime series.

However what I was hoping for was that the fifth generation will change up the traditional eight-gym structure in some way. If that were to happen, they can justify having Ash win the Sinnoh League and beat the Elite Four, providing a nice jumping-off point for the longtime fans, while also keeping Ash on, as he would have a "greater challenge" (for those who assume that if the series had a different protagonist suddenly the anime franchise's popularity would collapse in on itself).


While I agree the first two thirRAB were awful abominations, I thought the last third - Master Quest in the dub - was fantastic, one of my favorite parts of the series. It cut down on the filler significantly, had story arcs like the Lugia and Red Gyarados ones, and the Johto League was my favorite league of them all. The Ash vs. Gary battle was so great and syrabolic.

To me Johto and Hoenn were polar opposites. Johto was incredibly weak for most of its run then finished very strong, whereas Hoenn started off well but choked in the home stretch. I hated the Hoenn League, the rivalries were so poorly built, and the Magma/Aqua conclusion was terrible. Sinnoh has been consistently pretty good the whole way through though.

And to address the topic, it wouldn't have been necessary to end the series at Kanto, it is a series in which the very concept lenRAB itself to run for a looooong time, as long as the producers want it to.

Of course the series does need an endpoint to make this whole journey worth it. And there has been an alarming lack of development over a series of this magnitude. So while it didn't need to end after Kanto it does need to end at some point.
 
I was really trying to ignore this, hoping it will pass, but since it won't other wise...
http://forums.rabroad.net/showthread.php?t=234549

As you can see Terror of Death, Mad Mod, myself, and several others gave you valid reasons why there are problems in the current seasons that overpower the good points, and in the end of the above thread, you admitted you don't care, so why should Mad Mod explain again? You'll just pull us through a full circle again.
 
That means they should be on the same level. However, I see Ash fighting like a complete moron half the time. That says Paul deserves those accomplishments more.

But to answer your question. No.

Because he makes colossal mistakes that set him up to lose more often than not?

The fact that he doesn't seem to learn from his past mistakes do however. Honestly, using type disadvantages don't work for every situation and quite frankly, he has not figured that out yet. Pikachu may be DEM, but your Grotle certainly isn't.

Consistently? The fact that Fire>>>>Grass has been a well known fact for 12 years lodged in Ash's mind does not excuse that maneuver.

So have I. Mostly it was due to the other person being better. Not because of the person making idiotic moves. And that is where the difference. These wouldn't be so bad if Ash was a beginner, but here we are in 2009, and he's getting the idiot ball from the writers.

There are usually good reasons why many aren't on top of their game.

*Lack of focus on the overall bout
*Personal issues making one depressed and unwilling to participate fully
*Arrogance (Might be the case, but still)
*Anger (Another possiblity)
*Just dont give a damn about the fight
*Etc. etc.

That said, nothing is getting in the way of Ash's concentration rather than possible annoyance at Paul's behavior. But even then? Some mistakes a person should not make regardless of the circumstances because of well known facts about those moves. For one thing, trying to counter-attack a Guillotine rather than....you know.... avoid it is probably one of the most face palming things i've seen at this point.

Everyone can speak about how much ash has improved, but if the writers are going to make him a piece of crap fighting the same person over and over again (regardless of the guy's achievements, Ash should have learned something about his strategies to fight better next time) then I cannot be convinced. If he can go about rematches with a Gym Leader, he can do the same for a rival. Its not excusable.

Then again, he didn't fight like a moron in the two part fight, though I find 6-2 pretty laughable.
 
Those are all some damn good points Neofcon. The only defense I have for the writers is that their trying to play up Ash's flaw of overconfidence. He consistently makes those durabass mistakes because he believes his Pokemon can overcome type disadvantages and possibly survive through attacks that deliver heavy damage/KO's. There are some trainers such as the guy with the Marowak in season one, merabers of the Elite Four, and Champions who have apparently overcome this weakness to an extent. The feat is possible but maybe Ash's approach is all wrong. When Paul had Chimchar he had it go through defense and endurance conditioning so maybe Ash should do the same with his Pokemon.

I'd like to think its that and not stupidity but who knows.
 
The Hoenn league didn't have any major rivals, but the battles were good (sans the Tyson match which was rushed), that I didn't care. We had numerous 2 on 2 battles, plus three 6 on 6 battles (against Katie, Morrison, and Tyson). It was that league that made me realize Ash's Hoenn team was one of his best in the series, and that was before Grovyle evolved in Battle Frontier.

People also forget the Harrison match in the Johto league was also severely rushed, most Pokemon went down in one or two attacks simply to give Charizard Vs. Blaziken most of the focus. But I see your points, and its nice to see that Paul and Barry will make the Sinnoh league very fun.

Yeah we all know Magma/Aqua was handled badly, the Galactic finale is airing in Japan in Noveraber, so I hope it turns out well.



I agree entirely. You also don't notice any major progression with the main characters till after they leave Ash's group. This is why Brock is handled so badly over the course of the series whereas May, Misty, Gary and even Tracey and Max got fairly good closure as characters.

Honestly if they would just finally get rid of Brock, I wouldn't have a problem with Ash and Team Rocket staying for a while longer. Sometimes I think Brock is the worst-handled main character of the entire show, which is sad because he used to be a great character in the early days.
 
That I could see. As i've said before, Pikachu is DEM but Grotle isn't, and if that is the case, then Ash neeRAB to rethink a lot, especially concerning the reduced speed of the other pokemon. Plus, his squirtle getting knocked out by a Ninetales, his Krabby beating an executor, his grotle beating at least one of Candice's pokemon and the like are all pretty bad influences on this, so again, I can see why he would be overconfident. But as said, if it's not working for one individual, it's best not to think it would multiple times.



Not think, he is.
 
Back
Top