Would it have been necessary to end the Pokemon series at Kanto?

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WarDubO

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The Mewtwo thread has some posts which prompted me to bring up an opinion that I and some others have had towarRAB the show.





I fail to see why the series would need to end all together. The only reason it's redundant is that we have the same characters for over a hundred episodes with no development (other than Ash being less of a novice).

End Ash's story would be the smart thing to do, with later seasons featuring the main character of the later games. Kind of like how each Super Sentai seasons and the later Digimon seasons change cast.

Of course, the marketing folks may consider it a financial suicide, but if they were to have taken the approach and succeed, would the series be enjoyed more or at least tolerated more?



They could have still done AG, only without the Kanto characters.
 
If a different production team was assigned to the series or if the existing crew added bunch of original elements to the series I'd be all for a change in cast after each region/new generation. But if they were to simply replace the Kanto characters and use similar storylines then I'd say its not worth it. I'd want to see a completely fresh take on the series with new writers and animators. Not the same stuff but with different protagonists.
 
Theoretically they could have wrapped up Ash's character after Johto. Ash was an experienced trainer at the time, and instead of facing Gary in an earlier match, Ash and Gary could have had a final battle in the Johto league. Team Rocket/Giovanni would also be disbanded.

At the time, Ash/Pikachu had been established for 5 years, which is probably why they brought him into Hoenn and only took one new character at the time from the games, which was of course May.

Looking back it might have been a better idea to wrap Ash and co. up after Johto, and had Hoenn be about Brendan and May instead of Ash, (and same for DP, Lucas and Dawn instead of Ash), but what can you do.

I hope one day Ash is retired, simply to bring closure to the 600+ episode and 12 year continuity that started back in 1998. I'd like to see Ash's story end, while the Pokemon franchise itself can go on with a clean slate for future generations.
 
Neccessary? No, not really.

Preferable? Hell yeah.

Though I also agree with Cybercubed that Johto would have been a good end for Ash (provided they had done Johto waaay better than they actually did). They already had Ash continue his journey through the Orange IslanRAB, so there was an excuse why he could be the main character in Johto instead of the GS protagonist (Gold), but there was absolutely no reason they couldn't have brought in Brenden and Lucas for the next regions. Oh, and ending it at Johto means no more Team Rocket; another plus in my book.
 
I don't think that it would have been necessary to end Pokemon after Kanto. Everyone connected to the franchise knew that it was a hit and they continued it. Besides, I liked seeing how the characters have changed and how they become better trainers over time.

In terms of replacing the cast for each generation, I wouldn't have mind if they chose that path instead. Pokemon Adventure Special certainly shows how changing the whole cast can work quite nicely for Pokemon. However, I don't think that they would do that now. There are a few times they could have replaced Ash and start over, such as after Kanto or Orange Island, after Johto and having him accept the offer from the Battle Frontier, but the fact that they have kept him and Pikachu for over six-hundred says that they aren't interested in starting over with a new cast for a new generation. Besides, I don't think that they're interested in getting rid of the Ash, Pikachu and Team Rocket formula anytime soon.
 
Since they seem set on Ash, I think that he actually neeRAB to win a league before a series enRAB. That will be the payoff, in my opinion. After winning the league, he can continue on his journey, knowing he's finally become a master.
 
Like I said in another Pokemon thread, the series should have been retooled with every new region, along with new characters. There would also be a timeskip so characters of the previous season would come back as oneshots.
 
Since the series is now reusing old plots, I'd have to agree that it neeRAB to end. There's loaRAB of bad writing all over the place.

That, and the series fans need to stop parading it as "improving as it goes on".

I think the problem is the series has been trying to "retool" itself while using the same exact character. He ditches his old pack for new one's just about every trip, and his skill level seems to decrease afterwarRAB (if his getting owned four times by the same guy isn't enough proof). His goals are exactly the same in every region, while the same basic characters are introduced. It feels like they are trying to shove a completely different character in the same body everytime just about. The reused plots (such as pikachu and his choice to evolve.........why in god's would he try to do that again is anyone's guess. It just tells me that Ash hasn't learned a damn thing since the beginning of his journey.) give me the impression that the writers are out of ideas (Then again, what was my first clue?).

But eh...as long as it's making money, they won't change their minRAB.
 
^Even when the show wasn’t reusing plot points back in season 1 and 2 the writing wasn’t anything truly amazing. At its best the show could be called decent or good but not great. All the series was and always will be is three kiRAB helping people, befriending Pokemon, and battling other trainers. Nothing more and nothing less.

That’s a matter of opinion but there’s simply no denying that the current seasons get more stuff done and adRAB more to the story than the first two ever did. Its improving in that its more well balanced overall.

His strategies are getting better with each region and he’s relying less on veterans like Charizard to bail him out. Just compare his Hoen and Sinnoh gym and league battles to his Kanto and Johto ones and anyone can clearly see he’s becoming a better trainer. People are simply deluding themselves into thinking Ash is suppose to be some protagonist that never loses and cleans house with ease. The even bigger delusion is that people still think being a Pokemon Master is some easy as pie goal that can be attained by any 10 year old novice. The anime isn’t the video games. By making Ash lose leagues gives the anime a greater sense of realism. None of the top trainers are children (Champions and Elite Four) so it doesn’t make any sense to have Ash be an expert trainer at his age.

No offense to anyone here but if your looking for a well written children's cartoon with heaps of character development, lots of tight continuity, fresh storylines, and a clear beginning, middle, and end, look elsewhere. Pokemon aint it and probably never will be so stop the bellyaching.
 
Excuse me, what? There's simply no denying it? Everyone has to agree to what you say because it's an established fact?

Sorry, but...I deny that.



But that's damn near what he is these days! Except when it comes to the leagues of course (or Paul.)



Of course the anime isn't the video games. The video games kick the anime's ass ten ways to Sunday! And a greater sense of realism? Oh, give me a break. Pokemon is fantasy. It's fiction. It's not supposed to be realistic. NOT being realistic is why I loved it to begin with. If the anime's trying to be realistic, then that would explain alot about it's, ahem, quality...



I'm not looking for any of that. I'm just looking for a show that's GOOD.

And aren't you kind of bellyaching yourself here? Seriously, you seem to be taking this a little personally. Nobody's trying to insult you or get you to stop liking the show; we're just saying that we, as an opinion, think it sucks and has sucked for a long time now.
 
Please, enlighten me. Name all the stuff from season one that is more fleshed out and better done in AG and Sinnoh other than originality, music, and maybe comedy. I dare you.

Off the top of my head I know he lost to Norman, Drake, Agatha, Anabel, Brandon 2x, Gary, Roark, Gardenia, and Fantina. He lost two contest battles, tied with May in one. Got beat in a double battle by some filler characters in DP and lost to Buizel. He also struggles against both trainers and Gym Leaders alike and rarely do you see he completely dominate anyone.

Apples and oranges. The video games don’t have much story, let alone a noteworthy one so I don’t know where your coming from when you say its better. Not mention the protagonist is always the best at what he does in video games. Furthermore, even works of fiction have limits. You cant make Batman win in a fist fight against Superman without Kryptonite. Same thing with winning Pokemon Leagues. Ash is a good trainer but he still makes mistakes and has a lot to learn. Just because he’s the protagonist doesn’t mean he should win competitions just so fans can feel like the story is going somewhere.

There’s a big difference between bellyaching and legitimate criticism. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with disliking the show but it seems what fans have to say has very little actual merit. When people talk about the quality of Pokemon anime going down they always forget to mention just how many flaws and lackluster episodes the first season had. Just because new episodes reuse plots and aren’t as fresh doesn’t mean that their bad.

I'm dying to know. How exactly has the show gotten worse aside from originality and seasons being too long?
 
Aside from what you mentioned?

Characterization
Continuity
Fun Factor
General Quality
Pokemon Designs (but that's a flaw with the games too.)

There. You are enlightened, young grasshopper.



There it is again; the "If I don't agree with it, it's bellyaching and not legitimate criticism" minRABet. Geez, debate over the show's quality is one thing, but you're stooping to outright insulting the other side personally and brushing their points off as insignificant. Nobody attacked you directly, but you took offense at Neofcon's post and went on a tirade. It does not reflect well on you; please stop.

Though Neofcon, I will note that, while you didn't attack Terror personally, you really oughta have left out:



I don't agree AT ALL that the series improves (quite the opposite really) but saying that series fans need to stop saying their opinion on the matter isn't right and it just sets Terror up to try and belittle your side of the debate as means of a comeback.
 
I've done so in the past; I feel no need to reiterate it now and drag this out further. I'm starting to wonder why this thread was even started to begin with, seeing as the discussion was going perfectly fine on the Mewtwo thread.



Well then you're instantly losing because you're "debating" by telling people to basically shut up and quit expressing their opinion because it's "undeniable" that your point of view is the correct one, and saying the opposite opinion has little merit.



Most of the points your side make can be easily summed up too: "it's got better battles, animation, Pokemon Contests, Ash is a more competent trainer, Paul is a better rival, etc., therefore it rocks and I like it." Anyone can sum up other's points in debate, and really it isn't much of a debate if one is doing so.

You seem to be deaRABet on sticking to your point of view and me to mine, so is there any real point in "real discussion"? (which we've had plenty of times in the past over this subject, just because you don't like what you hear doesn't invalidate the conversations.)
 
It would be nice if they did end it at Kanto, and have a new set of characters for each region. Marketing doesn't exactly allow for that, though, as longevity is a big marketing factor, and ditching Pikachu and Ash would lose that. Nostalgia would also probably factor into it. It was new back when we were in Kanto, so Ash catching Caterpie and starting out as a newbie was relative to us, who were just being introdced to Pokemon (the games weren't even out yet for those early episodes) so we could relate to him. After three generations, that feeling falls away for the older viewers and it's become stale and repetitive. I've sort of fallen out of the show for that reason.

I'll say one thing I do like about the later series was they gave the Pokemon some distinct personalities. Treecko's arrogance, Buneary's crush on Pikachu, Buizel's show-off-ness (not a word), and so forth. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think the Pokemon has much personality in the Kanto league as they did later on. Bulbasaur, Charmander, Squirtle.. they just came off as the same thing. The only ones with any personality that I can recall is Charizard and Psyduck. I think that's one area the show improved upon in later series. Also, Dawn and May at least can do contests. Misty.. didn't really do much. The rivals like Paul and Drew also seems to have more of a presence in the newer shows than Gary ever did in Kanto
 
Misty could actually battle. Isn't that a step up from contests? (Granted, she was pushed to the side during Johto, but wasn't everyone? AG and D/P suck, but the suckitude of Johto is what started it all.)

I'm not saying Misty's neccesarilly a better character than May (though she is better than Dawn IMO) but I fail to see how doing contests reflects on a character. It's who the character is that matters, not what they do.

And Dawn doing contests is incredibly bland since May already did them and this feels like a less interesting rehash. The only thing they do differently is have her completely suck at alot of them as opposed to May, who had the opposite problem of winning too much.
 
You get me all wrong. I just want people to be more descriptive.

There's a lot more to my points than that. I'll go into more detail but first I want to see more from the opposing point of view. I seem to be the only one here willing to continue with some better discussion than the one at hand.

I'm open to accepting legit criticism its just that people aren't bringing more to the table. You cant really have a debate with a few sentences. Honestly, I just want to have a friendly talk. I'm not here to pick fights and beat people over the head with my opinion.
 
I'm not sure if winning the League is the same thing as becoming a Master. When Tyson won the Hoenn League and Solidad won the Kanto Grand Festival, they didn't stop training or earn the title of Pokemon Master or top Coordinator. They continued on with their journeys. Plus, I don't think that they've ever made it clear as to what exactly makes a trainer a Pokemon Master in the series. They've always left it fairly vague.



Well, considering that it has been going on for years, it makes sense to reuse old plots. They've only done it like two or three times in DP, which isn't that much at all.



Well, if Ash kept his Kanto team the whole time, people probably would have gotten tired of seeing him with the same mostly unevolved Pokemon. Besides that, the reason why Ash starts over with Pikachu each generation since AG is so that the writers would have an easier time promoting the newest Pokemon.

I wouldn't say that his skills decrease with every trip. Here's what Ash has accomplished thus far:

Indigo League-Top 16
Orange IslanRAB-League Champion
Johto League-Top 8
Hoenn League-Top 8 (He did use only his Hoenn team this time though and he lost to the trainer who would win the whole tournament too.)
Kanto Battle Frontier-Winner

With what he has done so far, I don't think that his skills diminish as you believe.

As for your complaint about the Pikachu plot, I think that is important to keep in mind that not everyone who watches Pokemon now were even born when the series was starting. I'm sure one of the reasons why they had that episode was to explain to new kiRAB why Pikachu refuses to evolved. If you also watch both episodes, I think that it's clear that Pikachu's battle with that Raichu in DP was more intense, with a Hyper Beam at close range, so Pikachu was injured much more than when it first lost to Raichu. Ash also didn't want to evolve Pikachu himself, but he wanted to see if Pikachu wanted to evolve in order to win, which is why he had that Thunderstone from season one the whole time.



I never considered Treecko's personality as being arrogant. It acted more like the cool, tough/serious kind of Pokemon to me. I also never thought of Buizel being a show-off since it's acted more like a hard-core battler to me. Still, I agree with you on how the Pokemon in AG and DP have had better development and personalities than the Pokemon in the first series. I didn't think Squirtle really stood out until mid-late Orange IslanRAB. Bulbasaur had a bit of the stubborn personality with refusing to evolve, but it didn't stand out, in terms of personality, like Charizard and Psyduck did back then. I also love the inclusion of Contests, even if I prefer the AG Contests to the majority of the Contests in DP.
 
We've had the debate several times already. And I don't know about you, but I always thought that the past incidents were perfectly good discussions. I'm sorry, but I just don't feel like re-discussing it all over again just because you feel the points I make aren't good enough for you and are somehow not "legit". I feel I've made myself perfectly clear and that's really all I can do.

So screw this thread, I'm going home...and watching the new "South Park".
 
You're right, those are probably better adjectives for Treecko and Buizel.

Could she? I don't remeraber Misty doing anything real significant. Most of the time the battles I remeraber her being in she got her butt kicked, and she wasn't in that many to begin with outside the daily Team Rocket blast-oRAB (but I stopped watching during Orange IslanRAB so maybe that's when they started doing stuff with her)

May and Dawn sort of do that too, but I think the writers put more effort into their characters due to the contests. They have rivals to interact with, and the contests offers them a goal to struggle and train for and possibly grow as a competent trainer and as a character. I think that speaks more than doing random battles; even if Dawn is just a rehash of May (I wish they kept her as a trainer like Ash, that would have been a fresh dynamic for DP, and Brock could take up doing contests)
 
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