Why I'm considering leaving the Vegan lifestyle, and I need your help...?

H

Hannah

New member
If it's not the right lifestyle for YOU then there is no use staying with it -- YOU are the only one whose opinion matters on this.

All of the info provided can be debated one way or the other, and someone 'setting you straight' as you say would just be based on another's opinion -- the information out there on the best way to eat is all interpreted different ways -- you can go do 10 doctors or nutritionists and get 10 different takes on things.

I'd base it on what I was personally comfortable with -- if being vegan is giving you doubts, then maybe step away for awhile, and return when and if you wish.

Best of luck to you -- it's not easy wading through the nutritional mystery we're facing these days -- just do what feels right for you. You know your body and your needs better than anyone, so you're the only one who can say for certain if vegan is right for you.
 
8Many vegans/vegetarians say that their lifestyle is a biblical one. But this does not make sense because . the jews in the bible were all commanded to eat the passover lamb. Many times they ate meat. The bible even says in Proverbs 27:27 to let goats milk be your food, and for the food of your family. Abraham dressed a calf for the three men (one being Jesus) which came to him and he fed them milk and butter. Thats Genesis 18:8. While Genesis 2:19 does clearly outline a vegan type diet, that was before the fall, and things changed after that. Before the fall, Adam and Eve did not really need nutrients... they did not need to work, and they did not need to eat. They were constantly in the presence of God. After they sinned, they were separated from God... and then they needed to work for their food, and eat. Even Daniel... it does not say that he was a Vegetarian, or that he was a vegan. It just says that they ate pulse for 10 days. Not 3 years, 10 days. Pulse is basically legumes, but
I've been a vegan for at least two years now, eating mostly raw foods, a lot of which is organic. Before I was vegan, I was quite malnourished and tired often. After I adjusted to eating more organic raw foods (vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts and seeds), as well as some cooked foods, for a while I was feeling great. I was eating a lot of fats too (olive oil, coconut, avocados, sunflower seeds, coconut oil, etc, etc). I also was taking Dr. Schulze's Super Food Plus formula... which is really great, and it even has B12 in it. I was juicing a lot too.

Since then, however, I've not had the same energy levels as I used to so I've been doing a very open minded research on this here. Before I tell you anything about what I've found, I want to tell you that I'm not at all interested in debating with anyone about these issues. I really do want the truth, and I would really appreciate it if someone here 'sets me straight' on these issues. By that, I mean that I am very open for a discussion about this, but if it comes to throwing flames at each other because one believes one thing and the other, the other, or one is an 'animal murderer' and the other is not, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it. I also would like to point out that I tend to use capitals. Its not because

So, here are some of my findings:

1.The body n-e-e-d-s cholesterol. Its actually very very important to your body and you are basically a vegetable without it. Furthermore, there are many, many lies going around about it. The drug companies will tell you anything to make money. Such as LDL and HDL being two different kinds of cholesterol. Actually, there is only one cholesterol molecule and the LDL and HDL are its transport system (to the arteries, and away from the arteries). When you eat grains, if you do not eat cholesterol with it, your liver will convert the grains into fats, and cholesterol. Now, your body does make its own cholesterol but it still might be possible that it is not making enough because of a. you are not eating the right foods or b. you have a liver problem (as most people do). So, being low in cholesterol might (I say might) be a problem after a while.
2.Eating eggs has shown in scientific studies to not raise people's cholesterol levels.
3.A lot of vegetarians (or at least a decent amount of them) have problems with tooth decay. This tooth decay large associated with not having enough calcium, and consuming too many grains. A person's health is easily judged by the health of his or her teeth. If they have strong, healthy, cavity free teeth, that means that they are probably very healthy. If not, then they are probably not. I, myself, have a few cavities which are growing.
4.Its all about quality. Its all about quality. While commercial 30 day old eggs might not be good, fresh organic, true free range, might be good... especially if they were raw. While pasteurized milk does terrible things to you, organic raw milk is great.
5.There are tons of myths about vegan/vegetarianism of which most are apparently not true. Like, that the land is being wasted and even ruined by raising animals on it, or that animals take in more water than plants. This is really not true because much of earth's soil is not good growing soil, and the animals actually help fertilize and replenish soils. Furthermore, their urine gets put back into the soil, and that is high in nitrogen, composed of mostly water. And then they say that meat eaters are mot violent because some weird thing is like transferred from the meat to the person, and the person kills people. This is crazy though because there has been Vegan killers. Charles Manson and his followers were one of them. They took drugs, smoked, and drank, but they never ate meat. In fact, he preached against it. Yet he controlled many (and still is today, believe it or not), and many died. My problem is that if I say I am vegan, I associate myself with so many other people who preach these things that are not really true.
6.Its hard to be a vegan and have vitamin B12. The only real source I know of is bee pollen, though thats technically not vegan. I know Dr. Schulze sells his super food plus formula with some kind of special yeast that he grows himself, on molasses, and that has B12... but thats about it. And also a lot of the supplements are not the most kosher either. A lot of them are synthetic, or worse.
7.Weston Price went around the world looking for healthy people who had healthy teeth. He found then in people who ate a relatively native diet consisting of a lot of lipids and proteins... beef liver, bone marrow, etc. etc. People who ate too many complex carbohydrates (too much grains), sugars, and not enough calcium, lipids, etc-- had tooth decay. He concluded that people get cavities, not because of bacteria, but because of a lack of nutrition... and too much processed foods (grains again) which lead to the demineralization of the teeth.
8.Many vegans/vegetarians say that
he could have had more than that. If I tell you that I had an apple today, you would assume that I had much more than that... right? At least thats what I believe. Now, you might say, “I don't believe in the bible.” Or, “I'm an atheist.” In such a case then my word is of no effect to you, but for those who do believe in the bible... please look into these things. Because if you want to support veganism with the bible, you will only be able to do so in two or three isolated passages.
2.With a vegan type diet, its very possible that one eat too many Omega 6's and not enough omega 3's. All these other fats that are really good for you too... come from animals.
1. Most vegans say that farming is wasting earth's space, and that it would be better put to use raising grains. However like I said many areas of earth cannot be farmed... and it is not for a lack of farming land, that people are starving. They are starving because of the greed of others. I note also that many people say that suc
 
If it's not the right lifestyle for YOU then there is no use staying with it -- YOU are the only one whose opinion matters on this.

All of the info provided can be debated one way or the other, and someone 'setting you straight' as you say would just be based on another's opinion -- the information out there on the best way to eat is all interpreted different ways -- you can go do 10 doctors or nutritionists and get 10 different takes on things.

I'd base it on what I was personally comfortable with -- if being vegan is giving you doubts, then maybe step away for awhile, and return when and if you wish.

Best of luck to you -- it's not easy wading through the nutritional mystery we're facing these days -- just do what feels right for you. You know your body and your needs better than anyone, so you're the only one who can say for certain if vegan is right for you.
 
If you are looking at it in the purely biblical sense, god's original plan, his original utopia in the garden was a vegan one, with all of his creation living in harmony, with non-harm to anyone or anything. However, as goes the story, the two f*cked up, and we are where we are. Those who follow veganism from a biblical perspective want to honour their god's idea that the perfect, original way to eat and live was a life of non-harm for any of the creatures that he created.

I want to clear some misconceptions for you, though, in points you tried to make later on...

1. You need a BALANCE of cholesterol. If you are following a good, solid, balanced vegan diet with plenty of fresh fruits, veggies, legumes, and some grains... your body has no problem controlling this balancing act itself. Introduction of animal products and animal cholesterol throws the internal balance your body already has out of whack... while many meat eaters have a "healthy" cholesterol level, it's a balancing act between them and those eating a plethora of animal products...

2. It is also shown to *have* raised them, even exponentially, depending on the amounts and frequency that they are eaten. I suggest finding a study that was *not* funded by the Egg Board.

3. I have never had a cavity in my life. It is true that calcium is necessary for enamel of the teeth, the only problem being that dairy products are one of the worst sources of calcium there is... the reason being that milk and dairy in general, while high in calcium, are extremely hard for the body to digest, and the calcium and nutritive value are not easily accessible by any body other than that of an infant. Blood levels of calcium indeed rise after drinking milk, but it has actually been shown to be leeched from calcium deposits in the bones. In cultures where they do not consume any dairy after infancy, degenerative conditions like osteoporosis are unheard of. However, it is accepted as a common aging problem in the western world, where dairy products are consumed daily, and en-masse. Humans are the only animals on the planet that happen to consume milk after infancy, and are the only species to drink the milk of another animal/species altogether.

4. It's true... the quality of the animal's life does measures to improving the taste of their products, be it the eggs, the milk, or even the animals' bodies themselves... but if one was to consider that it tastes better when we treat them better, the same argument of "less is more" would come into play... food tastes better if we don't eat these animals at all.

5. I hate to break it to you... but you are wrong on the "but they fertilize" argument. It is true... if animals were raised the way that nature intended, and they roamed free over a great amount of space, it's true, their feces and urine would indeed fertilize and help to replenish the soil that they grazed over. However, mass production of animals for food is essentially a "salt the earth" effect. While nitrogen in smaller amounts is necessary for the growth of plant life, the sheer magnitude of it being produced on modern farms essentially poisons off any potential plant growth... also, all of that excess, all of the leftover hormones, additives, etc. in the animals' food, comes out their rear end... and in en-masse production, leeches into and taints groundwater reserves.

You are also mistaken in that "animals take more land"... they DO. It takes acres and acres more ground to make a pound of beef (because land has to be dedicated to growing all of the corn and hay that animal will need to eat), and thousands more gallons of water (not only for the animal themselves, but again for the crops to be grown to feed to them, etc.). This is a sad fact, but it's true. There are many areas of the world that cannot be used to raise crops... and therefore raising animals there would be a death sentence. The few plants they have would need be fed to the cow, just so he can produce a few pounds of protein.

And dietary choice does not necessarily mean that someone is a good person. There have been bad people who have chosen a vegan diet. But there have been plenty of bad people living and eating an omnivorous lifestyle as well. The vast majority of those who are vegan though come to this diet and lifestyle as a way to do as little harm to others (in all forms) as possible. We are not saints. We just choose to exercise our compassion in ways that we believe are right. Just because you are vegan does not mean you associate in any way with someone like Manson. Sure, he was a vegan. But then, saying "I eat meat" doesn't automatically associate you with Mao, either, does it? Individuals differ, regardless of the diet they choose.

6. It is actually entirely possible (and easy) to have a completely nutritionally balanced diet. If you've never looked into it genuinely, you really won't know what you're doing.

7. It is widely-known that processed sugar is
 
If you are looking at it in the purely biblical sense, god's original plan, his original utopia in the garden was a vegan one, with all of his creation living in harmony, with non-harm to anyone or anything. However, as goes the story, the two f*cked up, and we are where we are. Those who follow veganism from a biblical perspective want to honour their god's idea that the perfect, original way to eat and live was a life of non-harm for any of the creatures that he created.

I want to clear some misconceptions for you, though, in points you tried to make later on...

1. You need a BALANCE of cholesterol. If you are following a good, solid, balanced vegan diet with plenty of fresh fruits, veggies, legumes, and some grains... your body has no problem controlling this balancing act itself. Introduction of animal products and animal cholesterol throws the internal balance your body already has out of whack... while many meat eaters have a "healthy" cholesterol level, it's a balancing act between them and those eating a plethora of animal products...

2. It is also shown to *have* raised them, even exponentially, depending on the amounts and frequency that they are eaten. I suggest finding a study that was *not* funded by the Egg Board.

3. I have never had a cavity in my life. It is true that calcium is necessary for enamel of the teeth, the only problem being that dairy products are one of the worst sources of calcium there is... the reason being that milk and dairy in general, while high in calcium, are extremely hard for the body to digest, and the calcium and nutritive value are not easily accessible by any body other than that of an infant. Blood levels of calcium indeed rise after drinking milk, but it has actually been shown to be leeched from calcium deposits in the bones. In cultures where they do not consume any dairy after infancy, degenerative conditions like osteoporosis are unheard of. However, it is accepted as a common aging problem in the western world, where dairy products are consumed daily, and en-masse. Humans are the only animals on the planet that happen to consume milk after infancy, and are the only species to drink the milk of another animal/species altogether.

4. It's true... the quality of the animal's life does measures to improving the taste of their products, be it the eggs, the milk, or even the animals' bodies themselves... but if one was to consider that it tastes better when we treat them better, the same argument of "less is more" would come into play... food tastes better if we don't eat these animals at all.

5. I hate to break it to you... but you are wrong on the "but they fertilize" argument. It is true... if animals were raised the way that nature intended, and they roamed free over a great amount of space, it's true, their feces and urine would indeed fertilize and help to replenish the soil that they grazed over. However, mass production of animals for food is essentially a "salt the earth" effect. While nitrogen in smaller amounts is necessary for the growth of plant life, the sheer magnitude of it being produced on modern farms essentially poisons off any potential plant growth... also, all of that excess, all of the leftover hormones, additives, etc. in the animals' food, comes out their rear end... and in en-masse production, leeches into and taints groundwater reserves.

You are also mistaken in that "animals take more land"... they DO. It takes acres and acres more ground to make a pound of beef (because land has to be dedicated to growing all of the corn and hay that animal will need to eat), and thousands more gallons of water (not only for the animal themselves, but again for the crops to be grown to feed to them, etc.). This is a sad fact, but it's true. There are many areas of the world that cannot be used to raise crops... and therefore raising animals there would be a death sentence. The few plants they have would need be fed to the cow, just so he can produce a few pounds of protein.

And dietary choice does not necessarily mean that someone is a good person. There have been bad people who have chosen a vegan diet. But there have been plenty of bad people living and eating an omnivorous lifestyle as well. The vast majority of those who are vegan though come to this diet and lifestyle as a way to do as little harm to others (in all forms) as possible. We are not saints. We just choose to exercise our compassion in ways that we believe are right. Just because you are vegan does not mean you associate in any way with someone like Manson. Sure, he was a vegan. But then, saying "I eat meat" doesn't automatically associate you with Mao, either, does it? Individuals differ, regardless of the diet they choose.

6. It is actually entirely possible (and easy) to have a completely nutritionally balanced diet. If you've never looked into it genuinely, you really won't know what you're doing.

7. It is widely-known that processed sugar is
 
If you are looking at it in the purely biblical sense, god's original plan, his original utopia in the garden was a vegan one, with all of his creation living in harmony, with non-harm to anyone or anything. However, as goes the story, the two f*cked up, and we are where we are. Those who follow veganism from a biblical perspective want to honour their god's idea that the perfect, original way to eat and live was a life of non-harm for any of the creatures that he created.

I want to clear some misconceptions for you, though, in points you tried to make later on...

1. You need a BALANCE of cholesterol. If you are following a good, solid, balanced vegan diet with plenty of fresh fruits, veggies, legumes, and some grains... your body has no problem controlling this balancing act itself. Introduction of animal products and animal cholesterol throws the internal balance your body already has out of whack... while many meat eaters have a "healthy" cholesterol level, it's a balancing act between them and those eating a plethora of animal products...

2. It is also shown to *have* raised them, even exponentially, depending on the amounts and frequency that they are eaten. I suggest finding a study that was *not* funded by the Egg Board.

3. I have never had a cavity in my life. It is true that calcium is necessary for enamel of the teeth, the only problem being that dairy products are one of the worst sources of calcium there is... the reason being that milk and dairy in general, while high in calcium, are extremely hard for the body to digest, and the calcium and nutritive value are not easily accessible by any body other than that of an infant. Blood levels of calcium indeed rise after drinking milk, but it has actually been shown to be leeched from calcium deposits in the bones. In cultures where they do not consume any dairy after infancy, degenerative conditions like osteoporosis are unheard of. However, it is accepted as a common aging problem in the western world, where dairy products are consumed daily, and en-masse. Humans are the only animals on the planet that happen to consume milk after infancy, and are the only species to drink the milk of another animal/species altogether.

4. It's true... the quality of the animal's life does measures to improving the taste of their products, be it the eggs, the milk, or even the animals' bodies themselves... but if one was to consider that it tastes better when we treat them better, the same argument of "less is more" would come into play... food tastes better if we don't eat these animals at all.

5. I hate to break it to you... but you are wrong on the "but they fertilize" argument. It is true... if animals were raised the way that nature intended, and they roamed free over a great amount of space, it's true, their feces and urine would indeed fertilize and help to replenish the soil that they grazed over. However, mass production of animals for food is essentially a "salt the earth" effect. While nitrogen in smaller amounts is necessary for the growth of plant life, the sheer magnitude of it being produced on modern farms essentially poisons off any potential plant growth... also, all of that excess, all of the leftover hormones, additives, etc. in the animals' food, comes out their rear end... and in en-masse production, leeches into and taints groundwater reserves.

You are also mistaken in that "animals take more land"... they DO. It takes acres and acres more ground to make a pound of beef (because land has to be dedicated to growing all of the corn and hay that animal will need to eat), and thousands more gallons of water (not only for the animal themselves, but again for the crops to be grown to feed to them, etc.). This is a sad fact, but it's true. There are many areas of the world that cannot be used to raise crops... and therefore raising animals there would be a death sentence. The few plants they have would need be fed to the cow, just so he can produce a few pounds of protein.

And dietary choice does not necessarily mean that someone is a good person. There have been bad people who have chosen a vegan diet. But there have been plenty of bad people living and eating an omnivorous lifestyle as well. The vast majority of those who are vegan though come to this diet and lifestyle as a way to do as little harm to others (in all forms) as possible. We are not saints. We just choose to exercise our compassion in ways that we believe are right. Just because you are vegan does not mean you associate in any way with someone like Manson. Sure, he was a vegan. But then, saying "I eat meat" doesn't automatically associate you with Mao, either, does it? Individuals differ, regardless of the diet they choose.

6. It is actually entirely possible (and easy) to have a completely nutritionally balanced diet. If you've never looked into it genuinely, you really won't know what you're doing.

7. It is widely-known that processed sugar is
 
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