Why do people have a problem with universal health care, but not universal...

K

Kevin A.R.T.

New member
...education, fire or police protectio? We are paying for people to get an education through the Public schools that they could not otherwise afford, but do not complain.
We are paying for people to have their homes protected by firemen and policemen; protection they would not normally be able to afford, yet do not complain.


S why do people "deserve" police and fire protection, and education, but not health care? Is your pocketbook really worth the lives of others?

I think you should be ashamed for putting the price on the life of another human being, preferring that they die of an easily preventable disease (since emergency room visits are usually too late), rather than have you pay a couple more bucks in taxes.
 
Ok... a few points here....

"S why do people "deserve" police and fire protection, and education, but not health care?"

-- Police are a form of sovereign control. The United States Government holds all rights to violence within their borders. So police protection is a way to patrol and keep the peace in order to hold sovereignty.

-- Fire protection protects investments FAR above the cost to tax payers. Just read about the old Chicago fire and why they decided wood buildings were a bad idea.

-- Education increases wealth of the country over time. This is seen as creating a better society later on that can make educated decisions. Same issue here as with UHC.... cost will rise to the point that tax payers won't pay and services will be cut.

"rather than have you pay a couple more bucks in taxes."

-- LMAO... you are kidding me right? A "couple more bucks" you obviously have NO clue at the costs of providing UHC.

Heres a few tid-bits for you... I hate quoting Wiki... but I checked the sources.

"The World Health Organization (WHO), in 2000, ranked the U.S. health care system as the highest in cost, first in responsiveness, 37th in overall performance, and 72nd by overall level of health (among 191 member nations included in the study). The WHO study has been criticized in a study published in Health Affairs for its methodology and lack of correlation with user satisfaction ratings."[1]

"However, the U.S. is a leader in medical innovation, with three times higher per-capita spending than Europe. The U.S. also has higher survival rates than most other countries for certain conditions, such as some less common cancers, but has a higher infant mortality rate than all other developed countries."[1]

"Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 15.2% of GDP, second only to the tiny Marshall Islands among all United Nations member nations. The health share of GDP is expected to continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5 percent of GDP by 2017."[1]

Lets compare that to France (the number 1 provider by some studies)

"In 2005, France spent 11.2% of GDP on health care, or US$3,926 per capita, a figure much higher than the average spent by countries in Europe. Approximately 77% of health expenditures are covered by government." [2]

So what could possibly be the issue here if the U.S. is spending 15% and France is only spending 11%? It must mean the universal health care is cheaper right?

Wrong..... Here is one issue why
France Population = 64Million people
U.S. Popluation = 307Million people
France's area size is about the size of Texas.[3]

So France is only taking care of 21% of the US population with 11% of their GDP.Another huge difference is in France you MUST pay out of your income to be covered unless you make less than 6,600 euros annually (individually).

1US=0.7140 Euro (checked today) doing a little math. 1euro = 1.4US... So their poverty level is approx $9000 US dollars a year. The U.S. has their level set at $11,000 dollars for a single individual under 65yrs with no children. Two parents with a child.... 17,000 US dollars. France doesn't even break it down like this so they have a much larger % of their population "paying into" the system.

It will cost the tax payers A LOT more than just a few bucks. And that my friend.... is called research! LoL
 
Mostly because they don't understand it. They have allowed the fear mongers to rule their opinion. In the end, common sense will win out.

edit: Point proven with the answers you have. It is obvious most have not read the actual proposals. Well stated, btw.
 
Do you know how many people home school their kids? Also it's illegal not to get your kid and education.
 
No problem with Universal education? Universal education is a disaster and now the only way out, vouchers, is being removed.

First responder coverage is not universal, it is local with some diminishing federal funds. Local communities make these choices and pay for it. There is no univeral coverage for fire, flood and theft insurance. The government does not pay for it and never will. Millions of people don't have it but do have health insurance.

Will you shame the government when it denies care to terminally ill patients who will be rationed to death as a burden on the system?
This is prevalent in many countries with NHC and the patients are sent off to fend for themselves in the private system after having paid into the public one.

You really should avoid this subject.
 
Public education is terrible. It is under the control of the federal government. Police and fire departments are local government. They work just fine.

This very factual view point (Preferring local government.) also makers me a right wing extremist to the nut house DHS.
 
Its one of those things neoextremists (extremism we havent deal with before) attribute to communism, its really shows their lack of understanding about politics , also when many of these hoolas live off the government through welfare which is a socialist policy i
guess its nice if their overlord kings used it use it
 
Actually I have big problem with universal education. Maybe YOU need to be asking why so many Libs are against vouchers and giving people a choice in their kids' educations. We have put the government in charge of our kids' education and what have we got for our tax money... the highest per child investment in education and one of the poorest educational systems in the industrialized nations. And this is the government you also want to put in charge of our health care???

The government has a defined responsibility to maintain the country's infrastructure and provide for the common defense, so the police and fire protection are totally appropriate. Universal health care does not fall in either category.
 
I have a huge problem w/ Universal Education...it's too costly, ineffective and embraces unions that keep terrible tenured teachers in classes. It's also likely responsible for the huge embrace of a system that's failing around the world (UHC) including similar insurance programs like Medicare/Medicaid/MediCal/S-Chip/etc.etc..

Canada and the UK have just injected hundreds of billions of dollars into their system to keep hospitals open.

The UK just eliminated mid-stage breast cancer from coverage.

We just included hundred of billions of dollars for Medicare/Medicaid in the "stimulus" and the 2010 budget with an expected loss of 900 BILLION dollars in Medicare alone over the next 10 years...20 Trillion dollar loss in the next 40 years.

We just raised taxes again for S-CHIP.

Here's the cross-road:
1. Raise taxes to combat high costs
2. Reduce user benefits to combat high costs

Why can't people pull away from the emotional appeal and evaluate the program on its own merits is beyond me. IT IS FAILING...no long term sustainability...and people are lined up w/ a huge smile on their face wanting to wrap that noose around their neck.

As for the system in place -- if people respected it we wouldn't be in our current predicament. If people paid their bills and paused for a moment before filing malpractice suits for a quick buck, the costs to the hospitals and their mandate to acquire liability insurance at a cost to users wouldn't be so high.

It's like getting pissed at GM for your car stalling after you put sugar-water in the gas tank. The system requires gasoline.

Just as our health care system requires people to pay for the services they take. It's theft if they don't, anyway you look at it.

Fire/Police -- Public Safety issue.

Edit:
"I think you should be ashamed for putting the price on the life of another human being, preferring that they die of an easily preventable disease (since emergency room visits are usually too late), rather than have you pay a couple more bucks in taxes."

Do you think it's a shame that Doctors spend $400,000 dollars to go to medical school so they can offer their SERVICES only to be denied payment? Do you think sacrificing 10+ years of their life so they can learn how to effectively treat people with symptoms that can't be narrowed by the common intellect to be denied compensation? After all, we have no problem paying for food and without food we'd all die. We have no problem buying shelter, and without shelter we'd likely die prematurely.

Doctors provide a service -- they deserved to be paid. Insurance companies help people cover that cost, they deserve to be paid.

People who don't pay or sue their Dr. b/c they couldn't heal them (w/ the millions of possible diagnosis) require hospitals increase their prices. Insurance companies cover those costs but factor that risk-premium into your Health Insurance premiums.

So is it the Health Care Providers who should be demonized? Is it the Health Insurance companies? Or is it really a combination of an emotional rationale that uses "life" as a justification to steal from the system and those who worked their a$$es off to be a part of that system at our expense (the insurance holders)?

If we're to fix Health Care in this Country, it does us no good to adopt a system that is struggling around the world. People just want to jump on the bandwagon of party ideals rather than reading a few studies...questioning the effectiveness of such a move and requiring if we change the system, we do it w/ positive results...short term AND long term.

Add to that the Government insurance programs we have on a smaller scale that are bankrupt and you have to wonder what the motivation is, right? It only leads down one road...

But maybe this is one more reality we face with the "ME Generation". "I gotta get mine" at the expense of all of those that pay and/or follow.
 
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