When does filler kill a series?

I answer this by saying that if the anime studios were interested in making their own original stories then they would, you know, make their own original stories.

But they are not, they turned Naruto and Dragonball into animes because they wanted to tell the stories of Naruto and Dragonball in animated form, not because they were interested in telling their own original stories.

if they wanted to tell their own stories then they would come up with their own ideas and characters and settings and stuff instead trying to fine someones manga to animate.
There is a great difference between comics like X-Men and manga.

The X-Men comics are just a series of stories with a bunch of different authors that have jumped in and put their own spin on it since the 1960's. If somebody else made a cartoon or a movie and put their own spin on it than that would be no different from multiple authors coming into the comic and making their own spins on the stories and characters. Its not a big deal. comics were not meant to tell one story, but multiple stories.

Manga is not like that, with manga it is just one story with a beginning and an end and thats the only story thats meant to be. The author did not create a manga so that somebody else could come in some day and make their own spin or their own versions of their work/story.

The Dragonball manga ended, somebody else didn't jump in and put their own spin on the characters after Toriyama was done with, it ended. There is only one story of dragonbball, there are no multiple versions with their own spin on the characters and the story, all the other adaptations follow the manga (the story as it was meant to be)... at least thats how it is in japan anyway (dam Hollywood and their dragoball evolution).

when a manga is written thats the one and only story, its not like comics where a new author can come in and pervert it to their own idea of what it should be cause they feel like it.

In my feelings, if your going to take a manga and adapt into whatever then you should be faithful to it, if you want to write your own stories than do it with youre own characters and stuff and dont try to mooch of some manga. Most manga are not created so that some cartoon studio or whatever can put their own spin on its characters if they feel like it. Comics are like that by nature, again, the X-Men comics are not just one story by one guy, its what a bunch of different guys want it to be whenever they jump on board. Manga is nothing like that.

Basically, i think your making a crappy comparison.

American Comics =/= Manga
 
Seconded, although I'd like to point out that your terminology isn't QUITE right there; superhero franchises =/= creator owned comics (which includes most manga).

Believe it or not, a good chunk of American comics are creator owned - just like Japanese comics. Marvel and DC just get most of the publicity 'cause they've got the budget to branch out into every possible alternate medium and, yanno, actually advertise. Sometimes some of the indie stuff gets some love (IE Hellboy, Scott Pilgrim and to a lesser extent Axe Cop*) but for the most part, superheroes are all anyone ever hears about.

* Best. Adaptation. EVER.
 
Okay, bad comparison. But, if your going to model an animated series after the manga and make it exactly the same then I don't see the point in making the anime to begin with since everyone already knows the story already. And I've been very happy with filler arc's in many anime series that I've seen, some of which have garnered lots of heat from these "otaku's" who want a mirror image of something they've already consumed. I like seeing 2 sides to the coin and others out there do as well, if fans want their anime to be exactly like their manga then they can forget about animation and stick to print since it's not going to change on them.
 
Point?, people want to see the it move, they want to see it come to life, theres a difference between imagining it move and seeing it move. Theres different between watching Orichimaru fight the 3rd hokage on TV and looking at panels in a comic. Plus its in color. Plus its voice acted for you. Theres even background music. There plenty of "point"

The anime Monster was exactly the same as the original manga, it follows the manga quite literary panel per panel. + no filler. I read the manga first, and that did not stop me from wanting to see the anime (and yeah i enjoyed it).

Hell the people around here seemed to enjoy Monster plenty when it aired on Scyfy here in teh states, despite it being an exact replica of the manga only animated with voice overs + music. + color. (Animation + color + sound + voice overs is a biog deal)

By the way im not in this thread talking bad about filler.... i liked the dragonball z filler (especially the ones in the Majin Buu saga). Naruto, DBZ, and the rest have filler, but at least they still try to follow the original story.

Also your making the assumption that everyone who watches anime has already read the manga as well, thats often not the case at all.
 
Yup, Monster was pretty great. Know why? It was made after the manga was done, unlike the myriad of shonen jump cartoons. Same deal with Cross Game; in fact it was timed so that the cartoon and the comic ended within weeks of each other. Ideally, the creators would play it this way most of the time or bring their A game for original material. That's the point.

I have to call foul on your idea that somehow comics and manga play by different rules and should. Astro Boy has had three alternate adaptations, Fullmetal Alchemist has had two, so has Rurouni Kenshin (to my mind, the OVA's count due to style and tone). I'm only scratching the surface of this matter for anime. The original content isn't sacrosanct.

Now yes, the ways U.S. comics and manga get published are considerably different. But that doesn't really have an impact on the choices that are there when it's time to adapt them to animation.



That must be some ending then, because I LOVED how that show finished. My opinion of the YYH manga has to do with the beginning rather than the end; it just didn't hold my interest while the anime never let go. Never cared for the art in that either.
 
The later 2 anime adaptations of Astro Boy are just remakes of the first anime... which was adapted from the original manga, also they were both produced by the Tezuya's (the authors) production company.

The Rurouni Kenshin OVA's are based of a manga storyline, though the one where Kenshin dies changes the ending (...he dies).

And the second FMA series is pretty much just the manga animated, which was only created because the first anime never finished adapting said manga. The author Arakawa was involved both series (more so the second).

Its not like comics, all of these example are still adaptations that follow the plots of the manga more or less and it was never the case where some anime studio decided they would jump on the properties and put their own spin on teh story or characters.

these are not like Super Hero comic adaptations, for example the cartoon Young Justice... besides being set on mount justice and having Red tornado live with them it doest follow the Young Justice comic at all, hell besides Conner they are all different kids on the team than in the comic, it has more in common with the Teen Titans comic then it does the Young Justice comic.

Super Hero Comics and Manga by all evidence do in fact play by different rules. Creator ownership is a large source of this, Manga are creator owned while Super Hero Comics are not. that is huge!!
 
Nope. Certain common themes and ideas exist, yes, but there are significant differences between all three.

The first two Kenshin OVA's are based on a canon storyline but are distinct from the animated series because (a) the art is extremely different (b) they hold nothing back on the violence whatsoever, while the TV series most assuredly would have. These are bonafide creative differences. There's also at least one notable creative liberty taken compared to the manga, but that's a subject for someplace else.

The point of the Fullmetal Alchemist example is that one series, Brotherhood, adapts the manga (though things were cut out for time, from what I understand), while the first one came while that manga was ongoing. And so as we all know it mixed manga material and original ideas--and in an all-too-rare example, it did it well with consistently good production and writing and a length that did not overstay its welcome. This is the sort of thing that should be more common rather than the slavish approach Larry spoke of, which leads to those nasty "oh crap we're running out of material so we'd better slow way down!" situations.

Whether the original creator is involved in a given animated work or not is really irrelevant to the conversation. The essence of the matter is the willingness to do things differently or add new content that isn't in a manga or in an original animated work, and the capacity to do it with competence.
 
The situations of "oh crap we're running out of material so we'd better slow way down!" are not common, the only anime that do this are 3 particular ones adapted from Shonen Jump mangas (Bleach, Naruto, & One Piece).

The first FMA anime situation is more common than what those 3 anime are doing.

Most other anime adaptations that catch up to the manga either end with the last story arc it got to (the first Inuyasha anime, or Eyeshield 21) or make up their own endings (Gantz anime, or The first FMA anime).

Sometimes they continue the manga story in the form of OVA's (Black Lagoon, or Tenjou Tenge, or Hunter x Hunter), or even another series (second Inuyasha anime).

But what One Piece is doing now with that "slowing down the pace"?, thats whats rare.
 
And Dragon Ball, and Toriko, and probably Fairy Tail....this isn't a minor trend when we're basically talking about the A-list of shonen action cartoons. Either way, at any rate, it's a highly undesirable approach.
 
Toriko just started and fairy tail has not done that. I forgot dragonball (but i like the filler in that series).

Id call it a minor trend if most anime don't follow the route that those 3 are following now.

A-list or not, those 3 anime are not the standard that most anime follow, their way of "slowing way down" when they catch up to the manga are not common.

More anime adaptations go the way of Gantz and make up their own ending material than there are that follow the One Piece or Naruto meathods if they catch up to the manga.

Fairy Tail is the easiest manga to make filler for an anime for that has ever existed to my knowledge. I doubt it will ever resort to slowing way down like say One Piece does.
 
Agreed, they're written fundamentally different. When anime gets a remake, it's usually to do a more proper adaption where the first series usually diverged at some point. Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and the new Kenshin series, for example. X-Men and Batman get a new cartoon every few years not to do a proper adaption (which would be impossible anyway given how comics are written) but to just have another Batman or XMen show to milk. You can never have straight adaptions of those. Now, I don't mind if an anime diverges, I enjoy both FMA series and shows with new endings like Soul Eater. As long as the anime only stuff ties into the plot, like Shippuden's stuff, I don't mind filler. The filler I hate are the 'no plot or character development' kinds, unless it's amusing stuff :sweat:
 
I just like to point out that the Sailor Moon anime doesn't really count as it never really have filler per say because unlike the Shonen Jump series, it never really followed the orginal manga down to the last detail like the anime versions of Naruto and One Piece. It's was always very loose adaption of the manga that may have the same characters and overall plot but often chaged alot the major plot points and gave some characters (mostly the villains) very different personalites. It was made to be episodic while still arc based on purpose.

And I'm not sure if DB Kai can be counted to being better than the Original DBZ due to be left unfinished and all.
 
Well Rud, Toriko's published about 139 chapters. The anime will catch up; its future is set unless Toei doesn't actually plan on marketing it the way it is One Piece. Bad pacing isn't the only negative consequence of being a "slave" to ongoing source material and I never meant to imply otherwise (and Larry did not). For all their content Hunter X Hunter and Tenjho Tenge never reached satisfactory conclusions, another issue that could have been avoided with better writing or a post-manga adaptation.

Bottom line: So long as there are partially-done manga being adapted for popular consumption, "filler" and original content ought to be planned for well. Better to do that than to not end so well or really draw things out due to misplaced fealty to the source material.
 
The Hunter x Hunter manga isnt over yet, the last OVAs covered the previous arc, the arc after (the current arc) is not done yet. The current arc must finish before another OVA can be made from it.


I never argued against this, i know filler is often necessary and yeah it should be planned out well ahead of time. I liked the Dragonball filler, im not an enemy of filler.

What i was arguing against was Larry's notion that the anime makers should "reinterpret the Manga from the start and make it their own", and about how if fans want the original story then stick with the manga. My feeling is that if they don't intend to tell the story of that manga then they shouldn't make an anime of it that shares its name at all. I consider taht shameful, if an anime maker wants to makes its own story then it should make its own story and not take some manga and change it up to their satisfaction. If someone is going to adapt a manga then they should try to tell the story of that manga, if not then they shouldn't even bother. Make their own story, they shouldn't try to twist or reinterpret some mangakas story until it works for them, i don't like that notion at all.
 
I think filler often does ruin the story because as it's name suggests it exists simply to drag out the story which is never really a good thing. I think Bleach is a prime example of when filler ruins a series. Although the quality of Bleach's filler is up for debate stopping a story in the middle of an arc to tell a random 50 episode story that has nothing to do with whats going on is just horrible story telling and frustrating to the viewer.

I really think anime should try what we do in the states and only do 20-26 episode long seasons. This way they wouldn't have to stretch story lines or interrupt plot lines and they could put more effort into each episode and at the end of the day we would end up with a much better product.
 
Bleach is a hard series to make filler for, Tite Kubo just doesn't leave enough room for it in the plot. It would've been better to end the anime after Soul society and then follow it up with a series of OVA's that told the rest of the story (like Black Lagoon or Hunter X Hunter), or even another series later on.
 
I'd like to take a second to clarify my stance here.

For me to really grade a series highly, it's not a personal requirement that it sticks 100% to the original story. I think most animation / anime fans can agree its interesting when there's a slightly different spin or take on things ... when its good.

The problem with the series I have been rattling off (Naruto, DBZ, Bleach, Sailormoon) is there is a very noticeable change in quality when they go off "script". Naruto is easily the best example of how different the series is between whats canon and whats CLEARLY not. Although its typically non-canon episodes, its all about those lows when the series gets bad.

DBZ was, as a whole, much, much better at this. We can all sit back and say, as long as you were not a die hard "The Anime has to emulate the Manga exactly" person, it was hard to decern where filler started and ended.

Naruto, Bleach and Sailormoon are a different story ENTIRELY. When filler starts, its OBVIOUS. As a standard, when they go off script, the quality of the episodes goes down hill like a 90 degree fall off with a few exceptions.

At the end of the day though, I still can't find it in me to decide if I can really sit back and claim these series as (1) top notch, (2) really good, (3) decent, (4) mediocre or (5) terrible (scale of 1 - 5) when you account for all the highs and lows.

We're really beating around the bush in this thread looking for something that helps define the quesiton, but I dont think we're any closer to an answer.
 
History has vindicated this notion. If there were perfect consistency when it comes to not reinterpreting prior work, the fact of the matter is that we wouldn't have Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, the first Fullmetal Alchemist as it is, Blood+ and Blood-C, the Rebuild of Evangelion movies, Giant Robo: The Day The Earth Stood Still, multiple portrayals of Captain Harlock, The Superdimension Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?, the Revolutionary Girl Utena movie, and more.....really, is that what we want? Is missing out on such content worth it? I'd say no. Should these things have their names changed? I'd say they have as much or more right to them than G Gundam does.

It's more important to adhere to the spirit of a work than it is to adhere to the minute details. Outside of anime, this is why the All-Star Superman DTV is so good while leaving entire issues on the cutting room floor and making a very significant change about the ending. Preceding works and the ideas associated with them should be respected, but this can be accomplished without rigid faithfulness.
 
Regardless of every argument made in this thread I still think there is room for changes and differences in story when going from print to animation form, for me personally I don't mind changes and as long as the filler is good I don't mind watching it. But good or bad is all in the eyes of the beholder, some hated the Naruto filler but yet I enjoyed it, it's all a matter of taste I suppose and filler is really only what you make of it. For instance, I've known people who absolutely refuse to watch anything Naruto because they hate the filler content and hate waiting for the core story from the manga to kick in, others I know have consumed everything from the series and are still thirsty for more because they loved every last drop. It's all about taste and whatever the taste of the person watching the content is, my personal taste is that I enjoy most filler I've seen but I know not everyone will feel the same.
 
Its not hard to be objective when it comes to Naruto filler simply by following the ratings.

State side, once Naruto hit filler, its ratings plummeted like a 20 ton boulder being pushed out of an airplane.

Some people may have well liked it, but certainly the majority did not.

Bleach is another great example. When it was big two years ago, EVERYONE was watching it, now its a struggle for me to find a single person who even knows the current arch. It seems like most people have simply given up on it.
 
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