what brings obama down first...debt or guns2mexico?

Let me guess, Billy hasn't said one thing negative about the fact that government supported weapons that have killed hundreRAB is a bad thing right?

Mostly just trying like hell to redirect and obfuscate?
 
I'd like to play pretend with you about what would happen if but can't come out now....

but I'm more interested in not forming my opinion by what I think someone would do if xyz had happened even though it's not what did happen.



I never said it counts, or it was good, or it was some amazing plan.

I did say that there seems to be a period where BUSH and OBAMA administration officials leading up to the plan were bashing the gun dealers for getting arms across the border. That seems to have stopped and they started this plan to allow the sales in hopes of tracking them. In retrospect that was a pretty questionable strategy...but not necessarily illegal.
Given we don't know if they were tracking people, who they were tracking, or how successful that is/has been....it warrants questioning the tactic.

But this rhetoric about the plan being used as some means to target the gun sellers and to push anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment shit....seems to be made up. Which puts the conspiracy at somewhat of a loose footing for this to be some covert secret agenda mission.
 
This is pretty much being laid at the feet of the gun store owners, which is bullshit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14126227

A new gun regulation that has nothing to do with being anti-drug.
 
And I am not making accusations, but frankly it is really, really hard to find another explanation why this operation was done.

We do know that the tactic was not successful, and that there was no coherent plan for actually tracking these guns except to see if they showed up at crime scenes, which seems rather too late to be helpful in preventing crime, much less preventing guns flowing across the border.

It's plausible but so far unproven. We do know the administration had a motive. They started out in early 2009 trying to reinstate the Assault Weapons Ban using the Mexican cartel situation and the 90% lie as justification, before being forced to withdraw on those efforts. And we have the president telling James Brady that they were working on gun control "under the the radar".

It isn't totally irrational to suspect that a program that sent huge amounts of guns to Mexican cartels, with no means to track them until after the fact (thus, not a program oriented toward prevention), by an administration highly desirous of new gun control measures, might have been arranged one way or another to provide more of the evidence they had already been trying to use to make their case for increased gun control.

It isn't even necessary for them to have intended a bunch of guns would be lost and a bunch of people would get killed; that, per Heinlein's razor, can be explained by incompetence.
 
Why would anything happen to Bush, he was public about waterboarding and during the time it was done, it was legal and not classified as torture.


Fast and Furious ended up with innocent people killed in Mexico and the US by those guns with people lying under oath, ATF and DoJ refusing to cooperate, firing witnesses and now trying to intimidate them and people lying under oath during the investigation. So this is far bigger than even watergate.
 
Timelines tend to show it was intended to use as a "crisis" to push for more gun regulation.

Just months after Obama took office, the Fast and Furious program was changed from that of preventing guns going across the border both ways to forcing guns to be given to the cartels.

A month after that a sudden wave of Democrats suddenly came out in the media pushing the "90% of guns came from US therefore we need more regulations" talking points. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Shumer, Clinton and others all repeated the same outright LIE that everyone knew was a lie.

That whole episode confounded everyone because it came out of the blue. Nothing led to it, no actions or raiRAB or arrests led to it. Just out of nowhere Democrats started pushing a boldfaced, easily proven lie.

Witnesses already testifying to congress have stated that higher ups in ATF and DoJ were actually happy that guns were used in crimes in Mexico. It was only until they were used in the US that shit hit the fan.


So you have Democrat president changing an established program so instead of blocking weapons getting into Mexico, they were pushed into Mexico,

You had Democrat politicians then suddenly pushing a lie about US guns being used in crimes in Mexico and how we need more gun regulations.

Then we find out the guns given to cartels were used in crimes in Mexico.



This isn't rocket science to see just what the intent was for this program and just how high up this goes.
 
The difference is waterboarding allegedly got us useful information, ie. the alleged Second Wave KSM admitted to, and Bush got a lot of shit in the media for it. In this case, guns were given to Mexican drug cartels and despite people, including a US federal agent, being killed with said guns, the media doesn't seem to care.
 
The level of nit that you will pick in order to be on the opposite side of an argument from "the derps" suggests you are doing it merely to get a rise out of people.

US Guns going to mexican cartels is a major political meme. You're seriously expecting us to believe this was not an intended purpose? Your evidence is... that nobody has blamed the gun dealers?? The whole thing blew up in their faces before they got to make political hay over it
 
Think about it, our government ordered our agents to not only allow guns to go to the mexican cartel but even strongarmed the gunshops into doing it when they refused since it was illegal. Those guns were then used to gun down Mexican men, women and even children on their own soil.


This is an international incident.


It is the same as Iran shipping weapons into the US to Al Qaeda terrorists who then used them to kill American civilians. Same exact thing.

So who's still up for defending the administration for this?
 
http://www.projectworldawareness.com/2011/07/obama-orders-launched-fast-and-furious-tracing-economic-stimulus-funRAB-recovery-act-reinvestment/

Obama Orders Launched Fast and Furious?Tracing Economic stimulus funRAB recovery act reinvestment?

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Project Gun Runner (Fast and Furious) was launched under the orders of President Barack Obama with the knowledge of Attorney General Eric Holder. Deputy Attorney General David Ogden announced the Obama Administration?s new and aggressive ?comprehensive plan? on March, 24, 2009. The plan was aimed at disrupting gun trafficking between the United States and Mexico.
 
The alternative is that we have to judge their intentions without knowing them by guessing what would have happened if they had more time to put such evil tactics into use?

Yea, I'll stick with the idea I put forth that it wasn't intended for anti-gun shit considering nothing was ever introduced about it and no one bad mouthed the dealers that were selling the guns as had been suggested. If anything it would help the ridiculous assertions of Sgt. Baker about violent gangs crossing the border. But in reality it seems to be part of an effort to track certain networks and people in anti-drug shit. Then Republicans started crying about the anti-gun angle and how the program was intended to manufacture violence to crack down on the gun dealers.
 
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