what brings obama down first...debt or guns2mexico?

I like how Obama is seen as some omniscient force above government and a person who can be always responsible for everything.



Where is the connection between OB and ATF guns? Or are you talking out of your ass again with nothing to back it up?
 
It doesn't take an omniscient force to know that HIS APPOINTEE has seriously fucked up (If Obama doesn't know about Operation Fast and Furious by NOW, he is the most clueless muther fucker in history), and HE hasn't done shit about HIS APPOINTEE.
 
I live 10 miles from the Hidalgo, Texas/Reynosa border, a point of entry I used thousanRAB of times since I was a kid. The spillover violence is getting worse and worse.

I've seen signs like this posted.
 
Did you, or did you not, want proof of the ATF blaming dealers? Or do you want to keep moving the goal posts?

Do you think that it was only during this operation that the ATF has blamed, incorrectly, dealers for straw sales?
 
That's debatable.

U.S. Guns Arming Mexican Drug Gangs; Second Amendment to Blame?

U.S. gun stores and gun shows are the source of more than 90 percent of the weapons being used by Mexico's ruthless drug cartels, according to U.S. and Mexican law enforcement officials.

"It's a war going on in Mexico, and these types of firearms are the weapons of war for them," said Bill Newell, the special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division of the ATF, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which has primary law enforcement jurisdiction for investigating gun trafficking to Mexico.

"It's virtually impossible to buy a firearm in Mexico as a private citizen, so this country is where they come," said Newell.

But U.S. efforts to stop the smuggling of tens of thousanRAB of guns to Mexico, including high-powered assault weapons, have been hampered by lenient American gun laws and the Bush administration's failure to give priority to anti-gun smuggling efforts, officials tell ABC News for a report Tuesday on ABC News' "World News With Charles Gibson."

President Bush said today at a press conference that Mexican President Felipe Calderon again raised the issue of guns at their meeting in New Orleans.

Mexico's strict gun laws are being subverted by the easy availability of weapons in the U.S., the Mexican attorney general, Eduardo Medina-Mora Icaza, told ABC News. "The Second Amendment," said the attorney general, "is certainly not designed to arm and give fire power to organized crime abroad."

More than 3,400 people have been killed by the drug cartels in the last 15 months, 2,000 of them law enforcement officials, according to the Mexican attorney general.

U.S. and Mexican officials say they have traced most of the thousanRAB of high-powered weapons seized from the drug cartels to gun dealers in Texas, California and Arizona.


ABC News
Assault weapons made in China and Eastern Europe, reserabling the AK-47, have become widely and cheaply available in the U.S. since Congress and the Bush administration refused to extend a ban on such weapons in 2004.

Under federal gun laws, gun dealers are not required to report multiple purchases of such weapons because they are classified as rifles.

"If you were to go into a gun store and buy 20 of these, there is no requirement by the gun dealer to fill out a multiple sales form," said the ATF's Newell.

The drug cartels' weapons of choice include variants of the AK-47, .50-caliber sniper rifles and a Belgian-made pistol called the "cop killer" or "mata policia" because of its ability to pierce a bulletproof vest.

"It's in high demand by your violent drug cartels, their assassins in Mexico," said Newell of the ATF. The gun can fire a high-powered round used in a rifle.

An ABC News investigation found the "mata policia" and a wide range of assault weapons prominently displayed at gun stores along the border in Texas, the state providing the most weapons to the drug cartels, according to the ATF.

Under Texas and federal law, there is no waiting period for the purchase of such weapons and no restriction on how many can be bought at a time.

U.S. officials say there is little they can do to go after licensed gun dealers because large purchases, dozens or hundreRAB at a time, are legal for U.S. citizens and legal immigrants with an INS green card unless a gun dealer suspects the purchase is being made for someone else.

ATF agents say legitimate gun dealers will often report suspicious activities, but that a small but significant nuraber looks the other way.

"I have personally worked cases where gun dealers have willfully allowed hundreRAB of guns to leave their gun store knowing that they were going into the wrong hanRAB," said Newell.

While the Bush administration has asked for an additional $100 million to corabat drug violence on the border, only $948,000, less than one percent, has been allocated to the ATF under the White House proposal.

"We need a lot more resources," said the ATF's Newell.

"It sure shows a lack of concern on our part for this piece of the problem," said Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., who has introduced legislation to give the ATF an additional $15 million to improve border efforts.


Sure as fuck sounRAB like they are bitching about "lax laws" on gun in America to me. ie Calling for MORE gun control laws .... you know, since "It's virtually impossible to buy a firearm in Mexico as a private citizen".
 
I could not agree with this more. Operation Fast and Furious has been a colossal failure and has resulted in the deaths of Mexicans and Americans, including a US federal agent.
 
I want some sort of connection between the operation allowing the dealers to sell the firearms and then the administration and ATF blaming these same dealers and using it to promote anti-gun bs. So far we have articles from the Bush era and months/years before this operation where ATF blamed the dealers....yet after the operation began...where do they keep doing that? and keep pushing some anti-gun agenda?

I'm with you on 2nd Amendment rights. But I think this operation because it involves guns was blown up by the NRA and many on the right as this anti-gun secret effort of the administration and Obama. All I've seen so far is that they wanted to track some guns and did a poor job of doing so, and were interested in the border/guns/drugs shit more so than some anti-gun rhetoric that's being pushed forward.

And if it turns out that they were going after this violent border thing, it's funny to me that many on the right that so proudly champion closing the border and turning it into a DMZ wouldn't use it for that sort of rhetoric rather than this unfounded anti-gun thing that's being tossed around.
 
ATF uppers knew about it but in order to allow it to happen it would require approval from Dept of Justice.

Since Mexico was involved then DoJ would need authorization from 2 other sources...White House and State Dept.
 
From what I can tell the original intent of the guns program has been spun into this right wing talking point that there was this anti-gun undertone to it.....even without any comments about anyone in the administration trashing the actual gun dealers or saying they had been the problem.
 
Well, even if that was the plan they obviously can't do that now that the truth is out, and probably knew that in Deceraber when the BP agent got killed.

Now giving guns to drug cartels without a means of tracking those guns until they were used in a crime, while otherwise maintaining an open border policy and fighting Arizona on border enforcement... counts as border enforcement?
 
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