fat_flying_pigs
New member
Now? It never WAS. It's so easy to scam the system. Not only to avoid collecting it, but also to collect it and not pay it.
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this motherfucker knows how to solve the debt crisis
- Thread starter doakpersoncat
- Start date
~I wish you could smile~
New member
following the California model that's working so well...
I'm pretty sure I said sales taxes are easier to avoid that our current taxes. And, here's a hint for you: Nothing you posted changes that fact. Seems you're the one getting your cunt hairs in a bunch over this indisputable fact.
Or ... watch the FailTax cause Wal-Marts stores to go out of business, since their prices are potentially 30% to 50% higher than the local mom-and-pops who might be more willing to uh, ..... accidentally forget a 30% or more sales tax.
Or ... watch the FailTax cause Wal-Marts stores to go out of business, since their prices are potentially 30% to 50% higher than the local mom-and-pops who might be more willing to uh, ..... accidentally forget a 30% or more sales tax.
Rebelled Devils
New member
Do you understand how difficult it is to pass a Constitutional amendment?
The Fair Tax will never happen for this reason. It's irrelevant.
The Fair Tax will never happen for this reason. It's irrelevant.
Yeah. Running some nurabers, I see that if a 30% Flat Tax was run, you would make less until you made $25.00/hr (using paycheckcity.com Alabama 80 hr every 2 weeks)
I forsee a lot of cheating if the system allowed everyone under that to pay 15% or (insert idea here).
It is a very complicated topic for sure. As someone else mentioned, how our money is being spent is the larger problem, and I have to agree to an extent.
I forsee a lot of cheating if the system allowed everyone under that to pay 15% or (insert idea here).
It is a very complicated topic for sure. As someone else mentioned, how our money is being spent is the larger problem, and I have to agree to an extent.
bl4ck_sp4de
New member
Karen, serious discussion here. you've made it clear that you think that the fair-tax will promote tax evasion/avoidance. help me understand your point better:
- I'm assuming you think that large national/regional retailers and companies won't be evading taxes (i.e., you can't NOT pay the fair-tax when you do the self-checkout at home depot), correct?
- So that would mean that the evasion would lie mostly in smaller businesses (maybe an owner with up to 5 locations? it seems like more than that would have significant exposure and a lot of risk)?
- if i am right so far, how do you propose these businesses would evade the taxes? do you think they would charge the full price and just pocket the difference? do you think they would lower their prices and not actually charge the tax? corabination of both?
- what would be the benefit of what you say above? are they trying to undercut their competition to gain a larger market share? are they just trying to pocket as much extra cash as they can?
- if they do decide NOT to collect (or report) the tax, they would also not be able to collect (or report) the standard state & local sales taxes they have been collecting all along. I mean, how could a store-owner report to the state $10,000 in state & local taxes and $0 in federal fair-tax and not be caught?
- if 30% (using your nuraber) plus state & local taxes is enough to entice an honest owner to become less-than-honest, how would they get around having a history of reporting $X in state & local sales taxes, then only reporting a fraction of that once they start cheating? don't you think that auditors/investigators/agents would see that as a warning flag and examine that owner?
- are you taking into account how many transactions have moved from cash to credit/debit carRAB and thus would be much harder to "hide" those sales?
- how would you factor in their competition? i.e., if store A suddenly starts stealing customers from store B because they are undercutting them, how long do you think it would take store B to call the tip-line to report store A?
- and how many consumers do you think will change their shopping patterns because a handful of mom & pop shops are giving a slight discount by gaming the system? shoppers are after more than price. they like convenience, selection, as well as price. that's assuming the mom & pop shops are even able to discount the price without alerting authorities that they are cheating the system.
- I'm assuming you think that large national/regional retailers and companies won't be evading taxes (i.e., you can't NOT pay the fair-tax when you do the self-checkout at home depot), correct?
- So that would mean that the evasion would lie mostly in smaller businesses (maybe an owner with up to 5 locations? it seems like more than that would have significant exposure and a lot of risk)?
- if i am right so far, how do you propose these businesses would evade the taxes? do you think they would charge the full price and just pocket the difference? do you think they would lower their prices and not actually charge the tax? corabination of both?
- what would be the benefit of what you say above? are they trying to undercut their competition to gain a larger market share? are they just trying to pocket as much extra cash as they can?
- if they do decide NOT to collect (or report) the tax, they would also not be able to collect (or report) the standard state & local sales taxes they have been collecting all along. I mean, how could a store-owner report to the state $10,000 in state & local taxes and $0 in federal fair-tax and not be caught?
- if 30% (using your nuraber) plus state & local taxes is enough to entice an honest owner to become less-than-honest, how would they get around having a history of reporting $X in state & local sales taxes, then only reporting a fraction of that once they start cheating? don't you think that auditors/investigators/agents would see that as a warning flag and examine that owner?
- are you taking into account how many transactions have moved from cash to credit/debit carRAB and thus would be much harder to "hide" those sales?
- how would you factor in their competition? i.e., if store A suddenly starts stealing customers from store B because they are undercutting them, how long do you think it would take store B to call the tip-line to report store A?
- and how many consumers do you think will change their shopping patterns because a handful of mom & pop shops are giving a slight discount by gaming the system? shoppers are after more than price. they like convenience, selection, as well as price. that's assuming the mom & pop shops are even able to discount the price without alerting authorities that they are cheating the system.
Even if you deem the idea of a fair tax as a overall negative.what do you think the positives of such a system would be? Short one liners is more than enough
Some of my examples would be
The increase in revenue from the back market
and reduced cost from the reduction of the IRS.
If I was on a computer and not my phone I would attempt to rebuttal your 53% nuraber and the claim that everyone would/could cheat. However no chance i am typing all that on an iPhone and understand if you don't want to more or less debate your self. However I would be interested to see if you could play devils advocate and be pro fair tax
Some of my examples would be
The increase in revenue from the back market
and reduced cost from the reduction of the IRS.
If I was on a computer and not my phone I would attempt to rebuttal your 53% nuraber and the claim that everyone would/could cheat. However no chance i am typing all that on an iPhone and understand if you don't want to more or less debate your self. However I would be interested to see if you could play devils advocate and be pro fair tax
Kool Aid Addict
New member
Pros:
Millionaires would pay far less in taxes and will finally be able to enjoy life
Cons:
Middle class families who can barely pay their mortgages while taking the family to Dennys once a week will have a giant tax increase
The average family has an income of $49,000
After average deductions, they only pay a 10% tax on less than $20,000 of income
Owing less than $2,000 in federal income taxes, child tax credits kick in and they end up owing no federal taxes
And they STILL are struggling to get by
So we give a huge tax cut to the rich, and the average american family gets little to nothing
Who makes up the revenue gap? Oh right, middle class americans who are supposed to support this idea
Millionaires would pay far less in taxes and will finally be able to enjoy life
Cons:
Middle class families who can barely pay their mortgages while taking the family to Dennys once a week will have a giant tax increase
The average family has an income of $49,000
After average deductions, they only pay a 10% tax on less than $20,000 of income
Owing less than $2,000 in federal income taxes, child tax credits kick in and they end up owing no federal taxes
And they STILL are struggling to get by
So we give a huge tax cut to the rich, and the average american family gets little to nothing
Who makes up the revenue gap? Oh right, middle class americans who are supposed to support this idea
mymanmickey
New member
but flattening the tax has never worked. it allows lobbyists and corporate influence to take over washington. one deduction becomes 5 deductions which turns into 50 deductions and so on. look at all the obamacare exemptions so far. the fair-tax takes the power away from the politicians and puts it in the hanRAB of the people. no more using the tax code for social engineering.
also, one main point is that the fair tax makes it more attractive for businesses to keep or move their business to the US. that means more jobs, better jobs, and more people working means more people spending. i don't know how a flat-tax encourages businesses to do business in the US
also, one main point is that the fair tax makes it more attractive for businesses to keep or move their business to the US. that means more jobs, better jobs, and more people working means more people spending. i don't know how a flat-tax encourages businesses to do business in the US
mikeymagic
New member
If you're interested in a consumption tax, a VAT is better than a national sales tax.
I fail to see what magical properties the FairTax has that makes it immune to alteration if some douchebag in Congress really wants to insert his own special provisions into tax law (making certain gooRAB or services exempt, for example).
It would be no less effective to have a flat tax that specifically excludes such arbitrary exemptions, e.g., eliminate all exemptions entirely except for dependent persons.
Simplicity and certainty would go a long way. Currently taxes are a nightmare with how complicated and arcane the tax code is and how it's constantly changing. More than big businesses, this would have a massive effect on small business, whereas I fear the FairTax putting the onus on businesses to collect and report it, and be subject to audits, might have the opposite effect.
It would be no less effective to have a flat tax that specifically excludes such arbitrary exemptions, e.g., eliminate all exemptions entirely except for dependent persons.
Simplicity and certainty would go a long way. Currently taxes are a nightmare with how complicated and arcane the tax code is and how it's constantly changing. More than big businesses, this would have a massive effect on small business, whereas I fear the FairTax putting the onus on businesses to collect and report it, and be subject to audits, might have the opposite effect.
Itachi587 (Bud)
New member
It's somewhat technical, but if you're interested, the problem with flat taxes is that they are only flat when considering the numerical value of the money, which is less than useful.
Fundamentally, what really matters is how useful a person's money is to that person -- it's marginal utility. As one would expect, when going from poverty to great wealth, money has a diminishing value to a person. While two bums might get into a fight over $20, Bill Gates can lose $10,000 on the stock market and not bat an eyelash. A person who can barely afford to feed himself values his 10% far more than a person who bathes in champagne.
Focusing on the just the nuraber of dollars is fairly wothless, when what really matters is how much those dollars mean to a person. Consequently, a flat tax is a crappy idea, because it ignores the value of people's money.
If there's any tax that is fair economically-speaking, then it would be one that attempts to flatten MARGINAL UTILITY. In today's terms, that would be called a progressive tax, which is what we have .... and now you should have an idea of why such a tax is preferable.
Fundamentally, what really matters is how useful a person's money is to that person -- it's marginal utility. As one would expect, when going from poverty to great wealth, money has a diminishing value to a person. While two bums might get into a fight over $20, Bill Gates can lose $10,000 on the stock market and not bat an eyelash. A person who can barely afford to feed himself values his 10% far more than a person who bathes in champagne.
Focusing on the just the nuraber of dollars is fairly wothless, when what really matters is how much those dollars mean to a person. Consequently, a flat tax is a crappy idea, because it ignores the value of people's money.
If there's any tax that is fair economically-speaking, then it would be one that attempts to flatten MARGINAL UTILITY. In today's terms, that would be called a progressive tax, which is what we have .... and now you should have an idea of why such a tax is preferable.
aznangelbaby408
New member
Thank you both.
~pink loVer~
New member
what difference? the lower class isn't paying any taxes as it is. and the upper class that currently pay little to no tax on capital gains/dividend/etc. income will now be taxed just as everyone else is based on whenever they purchase whatever they purchase (loaf of bread, laraborghini, john kerry's new yacht).
plus there's additional tax revenue streams from the underground economy (those who earn a living that isn't reported to the IRS at all) as well as the millions of tourists who come to buy their "I :heart: NY" t-shirts
plus there's additional tax revenue streams from the underground economy (those who earn a living that isn't reported to the IRS at all) as well as the millions of tourists who come to buy their "I :heart: NY" t-shirts
jiffylittle
New member
because it takes the power out of the politicians hanRAB. there are no more deductions, loopholes, etc. to be added in. fair-tax specifically disallows being able to exempt certain products/services. that's why the pre-bate is built in to avoid politicians and lobbyists from having the power to pick and choose.
regarding the complexity, i don't really see how it is much different than how small businesses are collecting and reporting sales taxes now. and i would imagine that being a lot easier to do (piggybacking it on the state & local taxes) than having to keep and sort through boxes and boxes of receipts, tracking mileage, calculating depreciation of assets, etc. all in the name of "deductions." i've worked with self-employed people for mortgage financing in the past and their tax returns make the new york city phone book look small by comparison.
regarding the complexity, i don't really see how it is much different than how small businesses are collecting and reporting sales taxes now. and i would imagine that being a lot easier to do (piggybacking it on the state & local taxes) than having to keep and sort through boxes and boxes of receipts, tracking mileage, calculating depreciation of assets, etc. all in the name of "deductions." i've worked with self-employed people for mortgage financing in the past and their tax returns make the new york city phone book look small by comparison.
gatorbite3210
New member
Why would I want to sit around and ponder the positives of a bad outcome?
Cancer is horrible, but lets sit here and discuss how nice it is that cancer rewarRAB society with shorter lines at the bank
Cancer is horrible, but lets sit here and discuss how nice it is that cancer rewarRAB society with shorter lines at the bank
Dtcenter77
New member
Great answer and to swing the pendulum the other direction
If a progressive tax system is the best solution to our neeRAB why is it that it is not more progressive? ( besides politics )
Meaning why is our highest bracket stop at $350,000 if I remeber correctly...
Why don't we have a 500,000 a 1 million + , 2 million + , 5 ect ect
No doubt my family is wealthy my father owns 2 small oil companies and another business venture , but a 3-5% increase in taxes would drastically change how he lived his life style where that same increase would do very little to bill gates or Warren buffet
Now just typing all that makes me feel icky because I oppose our tax system on moral grounRAB, not for practical issues.
If a progressive tax system is the best solution to our neeRAB why is it that it is not more progressive? ( besides politics )
Meaning why is our highest bracket stop at $350,000 if I remeber correctly...
Why don't we have a 500,000 a 1 million + , 2 million + , 5 ect ect
No doubt my family is wealthy my father owns 2 small oil companies and another business venture , but a 3-5% increase in taxes would drastically change how he lived his life style where that same increase would do very little to bill gates or Warren buffet
Now just typing all that makes me feel icky because I oppose our tax system on moral grounRAB, not for practical issues.
Alexander.
New member
i don't know what's worse...that you think the local mom-and-pop shops are dishonest crooks who are out to cheat the system, or that you think they will drive wal-mart out of business
what would be the point in not charging their customers the appropriate tax? are you saying they wouldn't charge the state sales tax either? if so, do you think they are currently charging the state sales tax? if not, do you think that impacts wal-mart in any way? what do you think federal agents would think about a mom-and-pop shop that has significant sales increases and significant state sales tax increases yet reports no fair-tax collections? hmmmm.....
also, if all these mom-and-pop shops are so crooked, why don't you go out and find someone who will sell you a gallon of bleach without charging you a sales tax. if you can do it, go ahead and celebrate by drinking it. if not...pay the tax and drink it anyway.
what would be the point in not charging their customers the appropriate tax? are you saying they wouldn't charge the state sales tax either? if so, do you think they are currently charging the state sales tax? if not, do you think that impacts wal-mart in any way? what do you think federal agents would think about a mom-and-pop shop that has significant sales increases and significant state sales tax increases yet reports no fair-tax collections? hmmmm.....
also, if all these mom-and-pop shops are so crooked, why don't you go out and find someone who will sell you a gallon of bleach without charging you a sales tax. if you can do it, go ahead and celebrate by drinking it. if not...pay the tax and drink it anyway.