The pledge

I haven't been on here in a while, so rather than respond to everyone's comments individually, I am going to respond in general. This mainly is in response to zachvac's comments as well as scrueball's.

First of all, do you honestly have a problem watching others students stand and recite the pledge of allegiance? If so, what exactly is it? The government does not force students to recite it or even accept it. However, if students want to hear it, they are allowed to. And if you don't want to hear it, then bring ear plugs.

I have seen arguments on this forum that state that children are impressionable and are too young to be subjected to this. Well, are children too young to go to church, sense they are so impressionable? Are children too young to watch TV?

Soldiers died for the freedoms we have now. And a symbol of this freedom is the flag. I believe it was zachvac who said they died for our right to burn it. I bet if you ask any soldier in Iraq right now if he respects people burning the flag of the country which he is putting his life on the line for, he will say hell no. I don't think Revolutionary War soldiers were fighting with the intent of having a free USA where people could burn the flag. What reason is there for people in the USA to burn our flag?

Having an objection to reciting the pledge is trivial, but even so I don't have a problem with people objecting to it. However, what I have a problem with is people who disagree with it, and think that since they don't like it that nobody should be allowed to recite it. Just because some small minority can't tolerate others' outpouring of support and love for this country does not give them the right to forbid them from doing so. How can you honestly be harmed by hearing those 2 worRAB in the pledge once a day, where you are not even forced to say it?

What's next? Are we going to have to create a new currency because it says "In God We Trust"? Do you object to that?
 
wow, from over a year ago. I keep thinking someone must be pretty bored to go down that far on the list of topics and respond :)
 
Get a clue buddy. Please tell me how that is discrimination. Students are not forced to say the pledge, nor even listen to it. Just because a few radicals somehow can't tolerate others expressing their gratitude to the millions of people who fought for our freedoms does not give someone the right to get rid of or amend the pledge. If you don't like it, don't use government-funded schools (get home schooled) or move to Canada or France.

I find it sad that people actually have a problem with listening to the pledge. Does it somehow harm you psychologically? What if I were to stand beside you and recite the Lord's prayer? Would you try so sue me because you heard me use the Lord's name? Because that is basically what you are trying to do with the pledge; get rid of it because you don't want to hear people say it.
 
We are under a senate, house of representatives, president and many other elected officials??? Since when? I thought they were our public servants. You seem to suggest that the reverse is the case.
 
ooga-booga-booga or itsy bitsy spider whats the dif.

Stand up.

Recite something in a loud voice.

SounRAB good to me.

As far as brain washing goes, it
 
We aren't forced to hear it????? We're forced to say it. I'll tell you how it's discrimination. This is a government-sponsored pledge and the government is particularly advocating monotheistic religions (God not god or goRAB) by claiming we're under God. I really don't care if you recite prayers because you can believe what you believe, but the government can't have a belief that we are under god. Would you tell your kid just to suck it up and stand for the pledge if it said that we were under Satan? Also people didn't fight for this flag, it's a piece of cloth on a stick. They fought for the rights associated with it, like the freedom of speech. This freedom is used when you don't stand for the pledge (I can post many court rulings on this if you want). A quote I heard was "Those people didn't fight to come back home and worship the flag. They fought for the right to burn it."

And how is your kid sitting any worse than forcing me to stand? As long as he's not disrespectful during it (as long as he's just sitting quietly) it should be fine. In my opinion we shouldn't have to hear the pledge at all, but currently the law is that they can, but the law is also that they can't force people to stand for the pledge and many school systems violate that and get sued and lose constantly.
 
Some of us who have enjoyed Wayne's movies through the years have wondered about his failure to enlist during World War II. The comment about his 'guilty conscience' might be just on the button.

In reply to one of Boswell's inquiries, Sam Johnson said:

"Every man thinks meanly of himself for not having been a soldier, or not having been at sea."
 
You know my answer it is in my signature the pledge is an empty false promise. I will not say the pledge and I will turn my back to the flag if it is being said in my presence.
 
This is not the current practice everywhere. Frequently (mostly in the South) people have been suspended for not saying the pledge. The school policy for me up until 2 years ago was that we were forced to stand. People have repeatedly challenged these policies and mostly won. The problem is that a court case takes time, and mainwhile they are forced to stand and sometimes recite the pledge. And if they don't enforce it, what can they do other than take it to court again?
 
There is no separation of Church and State. It's a myth, a phantom argument. There is only an amendment that guarantees that the State won't create a State religion. It doesn't prevent anybody from exercising religious freedom in public, however. The term itself was coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to danbury Baptists who were being persecuted for their beliefs, not lack thereof.
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties."

At the time this was written, there was still religious persecution taking place. Jefferson was giving his vision of the future with his comments above.


Interesting slant. You want free public education but you resist any state-sanctioned and mandated rituals. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
 
There are 2 different issues brought up. The main one I'm opposed to is forcing students to stand for the pledge, that's the main problem I have. The under god issue is not an issue of having to accept it, it's an issue of the school system telling them there is a god and we are under him. Church isn't required, school is. A parent gets to decide whether to take their child to church, you have to go to school.




I mentioned above the church issue. TV is also restricted by parents and by ratings (G,PG,PG-13, etc). The issue isn't that they are too young and I have never used this argument. The issue is that they are presenting them with the FACT that there not only is a god, but we are under him. This would not only influence religion but would make people (mostly older) feel like outsiders. It's claiming that this country is under god and makes people who don't believe in god feel as though they don't belong in this country. The same argument as for putting crosses on government land (see the cross forum for more information)





This is exactly my point. Soldiers died for the freedoms we have now. One of these freedoms is the freedom of speech which encompasses sitting during the pledge and burning the flag. And it doesn't really matter what the soldiers would say, they are fighting for American freedoms and the right to burn the flag is currently a freedom to all Americans. And I think the Revolutionary War soldiers would want to have a free USA where people could burn the flag. They probably wanted to be able to burn the British flag to voice their opinion but they weren't allowed to.



I have never said people shouldn't be able to recite it. First of all there are many other times to recite the pledge. It takes 15 seconRAB. During school there are many passing perioRAB with more than enough time and then there's lunch and after school. Form a pledge group and meet at lunch and recite the pledge with the under god.

I think that people should be able to recite the pledge without the under god every day. If they want to support their country then they don't need to talk about it being under god. I have no problem with people reciting it with the under god, just do so on your own time.




Yes actually I do have a problem with this. We is the United States of America. And while the majority of the people may believe in god, the actual government can't believe in god.
 
I think those who find it offensive (most do for religious reasons) should be able to step out or not participate (as shoudl be their right with freedom of speach anyway).

However, we do not need to go through the headache of banning or changing it. Way more inmportant things going on.
 
Cant argue with that.

I guess I would ask you form a purely psychological standpoint does it make a difference?

Personally I believe that if it
 
Christ never claimed that this or any other temporal nation was under him? He did however claim that his Kingdom was not of this world. He also directed us to render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which belong to God.

The act of affirming a belief in "one nation under God" is to no avail. This is because the homage rendered to the Creator is performed according to the recommendation of Congress. The Scriptures teach us that
 
Before I respond, do you mind me asking how old you are, and what grade you are in? I just want to determine what your deal is.




I don't have a problem if people want to be unpatriotic and sit down during the pledge. It won't bother me a bit. What I don't understand though is how simply standing up can be offensive or harmful to you? Nobody is forcing you to recite or accept the pledge, all you have to do is simply stand up. What problem do you have with that? When you go to a sporting event, do you stand up for the national anthem? Or do you also have a problem with that?

If you don't like government funded schools, get homeschooled. We could certainly live much better without people like you in our schools.



Are you serious? Why does a cross HAVE TO imply God? I find it absolutely pathetic that people are trying to remove a small cross from a state seal. How does that affect you? You aren't forced to salute it, respect it, or even look at it. If it had someone being crucified on it, I could understand trying to remove it. But a simple cross? Give me a break.



I doubt they fought for the right to burn the flag. What does burning the flag do for you? Do you think it's cool?



So it is harmful for you to use money knowing that there is one workd on there you don't like? Do you suggest we throw away the current currency and make currency without GOD on it?
 
Where is the "separation of Church and State" listed in the contusion?
Where is it written that saying the word god means the Christian god?
Why are the worRAB “under god” such a big deal? Are there no larger problems in the public schools than weather god is good or bad in schools?
 
Does the State of Texas have the authority to enact a law that establishes the duty of every person to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be directed by his conscience and convictions ; and to levy a fine of up to $5,000 and/or impose a penalty of up to two years in jail on any officer, employee or agent of the State of Texas who orders, directs, instructs, prompts, encourages, advises, recommenRAB, or suggests that a person has a particular duty which he owes to his Creator and to no one else, other than the duty of every person to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him?

Fred Von Flash
 
Which will make an eventual SCOTUS decision on state legislation a test of our newly staffed high court's constitutional interpretation. The few learned opinions I've read on the Internet support your post, but I don't visit belief system websites, which I'm sure support anything worshiping their primary deity.
 
Personally, I have no problem watching others stand and say the pledge of allegiance.

On the other hand, I wouldn't say it, now, if you were to ask me to.

And I DO have a problem with those who told me to stand and say it when I was 5 years old... at the time, I didn't understand that I had the choice to decline. I didn't understand what I was saying. And I didn't understand that I was giving my WORD... and to me, my word is my bond. A man's word is all he really has, when it comes down to it. It is the thing he's judged by... whether he keeps his word or not. And when I was 5 years old, in kindergarten, somebody told me to give my word about something... and I was too young to understand that.

Perhaps this is why a man's word means so little nowadays? Because he is taught from youth to give it freely... and then later it means little to him to break it, once he learns to think for himself, and maybe decides that the thing he promised really isn't the best thing?

Nowadays, there are several things I would die for. There are several things I would pledge allegiance to. My family, my brothers, my best frienRAB, and most of all, my freedom.

And as you pointed out, many soldiers have died for these things. As a former Marine Corps infantryman myself, though, I can tell you one thing; few of them died for as vague a thing as the flag. Or the "United States of America".

They died for each other. And they died for freedom. And that freedom includes the freedom to BURN that flag, if they so choose.

One more thing; you asked me if I minded children being taken to church, or other places of ideological teaching, at a young age.

As for myself, if I ever have children, I will definitely take them to church. I will expose them to the same teachings of right and wrong I was exposed to, when I was young. But unlike my parents, I will not INDOCTRINATE my children into my own beliefs. I will teach them all I can, and at the same time, I will tell them that no faith is all-encompassing. I will teach them the biggest lesson of all... to think for themselves, and to make up their own minRAB about everything.

Including to whom, and to what, to pledge their allegiance.
 
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