The pledge

I have a client whose public school child refused to leave the room when the pledge was recited and accused the public school teacher of being in league with Satan trying to assume civl authority over his duty to the Creator and trespassing upon the perogatives of the Almighty. He urged the other students to do the same.

The school threatened to punish the boy and the other dissenters. The boy's father threatened to sue the school and hired me to represent him.

I negotiated a compromise where the teacher invites the class to recite the original pledge. Some students add "one nation under God" and some add "one nation with complete liberty of conscience." One boy says "with absolute soul liberty." So far the compromise is working and talk of litigation is on the down low.

Fred
 
I think John Wayne said it best where my opinion stanRAB:


And then there is Red Skelton who breaks down MY Pledge for those who don't know just what it should mean to those who are proud to be American.
And since it is all over the net I am posting it here because I never felt forced to say how much I love my home.


http://www.usflag.org/skeltonspledge.html
 
Last time I check the pledge wasn't related to any particular religion. It saddens me that kiRAB like you disrepect what millions of Americans have fought and died for. Suck it up kid, there are a lot more things in life that you should be worrying about. Only in this country would the most fortunate people on Earth complain about having to respect a symbol of the nation that they have so luckily been born into.
 
I don't feel this is an insult and I'll answer it. I am 15, a sophomore in high school. 2 years ago I wasn't in high school but I read articles in the school newspaper online along with a long debate at the bottom of the article (the paper puts an open forum section at the bottom to debate on it or comment)






OK, give me a reason why staying seated is unpatriotic. And standing is a sign of respect, so standing would be respecting the worRAB being said during the pledge. I have no respect for a pledge that seems to brainwash kiRAB into loving the US and tell us we are under god.




If you had read the debate it wasn't about a cross on a state seal. It was about 3-D crosses on government land, for example a courthouse. And please tell me you're joking that a cross (with the vertical line longer than the horizontal and the horizontal closer to the top, you know what I'm talking about) doesn't necessarily imply god. I would like to see one person see a cross and not associate it with god and Christianity.




I'm not doing this because I think it's cool. I have never burned a flag and I doubt I ever will, but I will fight for the right of every citizen to burn the flag if they want to. I will tell you many people in my class tell me to "just stand up during the pledge". I am not doing this to act cool, I don't know where you came up with that. Mainly I think it's the other way around. Everyone stanRAB for the pledge just because they think it's the norm, not because they truly respect the flag and what it stanRAB for (a few do, but when people ask me why I don't stand I ask them why they do, they usually don't know or just say "it's the right thing to do" or something to that effect).







It is not harmful in itself to have money with god in it. This is not a top priority, but I think before the US can truly say there is separation of church and state there can be no endorsement of religion on money.
 
It is not mandatory that anyone say the pledge. But the pledge nevertheless is a thing sponsored by Congress... written by Congress.

As such, it should not include "under God". Congress is respecting a religion, by that phrase. And that is wrong. It's as simple as that.
 
Sorry, but "under god" is discriminatory because some people believe in no god, and others in more than one. Don't try to radicalize our position by saying we are aganist the entire pledge.
 
rather surprised to see this.

I'm about as patriotic as can be. I proudly fly the American flag outside my home, I take it down every night, and fold it accordingly. Many members of my family serve in all branches, some are prtecting shorelines, some are protecting the skies, some are protecting your backyard.
 
If you are correct, then I have no problem. But be prepared for others to dispute your claim and provide evidence contrary to your statement.
 
I did a little reaserch on the meaning of the phrase "establishment of religion" in the context of the time it was written and found an interesting reference that clears it up for me. Maybe it'll help others gain a better understanding, so her it is:
http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/meaning_of_establishment.htm

You were right in that it meant that Congress shall make no laws pertaining to religion. The meaning of the term "establishment" is what I was stuck on all this time.
 
I realize that but neither would standing up every day and yelling ooga-booga-booga. It serves no purpose when the kiRAB don't even think when they say it. They do not teach history or citizenship as earlier claimed.
 
Why do you suppose the founding fathers believed that a pledge of allegiance to a flag with an affimation of belief in God was not a good idea?

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The United State Was Founded As A Heathen Nation That Disowned God ​

The evil men who led the satanic movement to have the motto IN GOD WE TRUST impressed on the United State
 
True. No one is "forced" to. Although at the same time, we are dealing with impressionable children here. More often than not, frankly, they don't know what they are saying. They don't realize that they are pledging allegiance to a country, and at the same time recognizing a "God". They don't realize that underneath the surface of the thing is a religious context. And on top of all that, more often than not... they don't really mean it. They don't... can't... understand what it truly MEANS to pledge your allegiance to something, or somebody.

No child should ever be told to pledge their allegiance to anything, until they are old enough to understand what they are doing.

It seems almost like indoctrination, to me.

That sort of thing doesn't belong in a public school. Private schools are another matter. But not public schools.
 
The Pledge is an oath of allegiance to the central state, and the "under God" language only serves to deify the state. From the perspective of a Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, or James Madison, nothing could be more un-American. After all, they and their contemporaries had fought a long and bloody war of secession to sever their forced allegiance, complete with loyalty oaths, to another overbearing and tyrannical state, namely the British empire.
 
Hmmmn......This separation businesses is so far removed from the original intent that it is becoming ridiculous. If you weren't "forced" to go to school, what would you be doing when you are 30?
 
John Wayne wouldn't even fight for his homeland during World War II. His priority was his acting career.


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Was John Wayne a draft dodger?
​

At the time of Pearl Harbor, Wayne was 34 years old. His marriage was on the rocks but he still had four kiRAB to support. His career was taking off, in large part on the strength of his work in the classic western Stagecoach (1939). But he wasn't rich. Should he chuck it all and enlist? Many of Hollywood's big names, such as Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, and Clark Gable, did just that. (Fonda, Wills points out, was 37 at the time and had a wife and three kiRAB.) But these were established stars. Wayne knew that if he took a few years off for military service, there was a good chance that by the time he got back he'd be over the hill.

Besides, he specialized in the kind of movies a nation at war wanted to see, in which a rugged American hero overcame great odRAB. Recognizing that Hollywood was an important part of the war effort, Washington had told California draft boarRAB to go easy on actors. Perhaps rationalizing that he could do more good at home, Wayne obtained 3-A status, "deferred for [family] dependency reasons." He told frienRAB he'd enlist after he made just one or two more movies.

The real question is why he never did so. Wayne cranked out thirteen movies during the war, many with war-related themes. Most of the films were enormously successful and within a short time the Duke was one of America's most popular stars. His bankability now firmly established, he could have joined the military, secure in the knowledge that Hollywood would welcome him back later. He even made a half-hearted effort to sign up, sending in the paperwork to enlist in the naval photography unit commanded by a good friend, director John Ford.

But he didn't follow through. Nobody really knows why; Wayne didn't like to talk about it. A guy who prided himself on doing his own stunts, he doesn't seem to have lacked physical courage. One suspects he just found it was a lot more fun being a Hollywood hero than the real kind. Many movie star-soldiers had enlisted in the first flush of patriotism after Pearl Harbor. As the war ground on, slogging it out in the trenches seemed a lot less exciting. The movies, on the other hand, had put Wayne well on the way to becoming a legend. "Wayne increasingly came to embody the American fighting man," Wills writes. In late 1943 and early 1944 he entertained the troops in the Pacific theater as part of a USO tour. An intelligence bigshot asked him to give his impression of Douglas MacArthur. He was fawned over by the press when he got back. Meanwhile, he was having a torrid affair with a beautiful Mexican woman. How could military service compare with that?

In 1944, Wayne received a 2-A classification, "deferred in support of [the] national . . . interest." A month later the Selective Service decided to revoke many previous deferments and reclassified him 1-A. But Wayne's studio appealed and got his 2-A status reinstated until after the war ended.

People who knew Wayne say he felt bad about not having served. (During the war he'd gotten into a few fights with servicemen who wondered why he wasn't in uniform.) Some think his guilty conscience was one reason he became such a superpatriot later. The fact remains that the man who came to symbolize American patriotism and pride had a chance to do more than just act the part, and he let it pass.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_004.html
 
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