The pledge

Apparently, you have paid no attention to this debate. Zachvac said, "The school policy for me up until 2 years ago was that we were forced to stand. " How was it an insult to ask him what grade he was in?

That is by no means an insult. Maybe you weren't as well-read as you claim you were.
 
Obviously, you missed my point. The Constitution forbiRAB the creation of a State religion. A STATE RELIGION. Belief in God isn't a religion. Catholicism, Protestant, Methodist, Judism, etc., are religions.
Our forefathers put that clause in the Constitution to prevent the government from establishing ONE state religion that all people must practice.


No it doesn't. It acknowledges a God, but NOT a specific religion.
 
Are you kidding me? As far as I know every single public school in the country recites the pledge through high school. And it is their responsibility to provide free public education without infringing on our rights and saying it was "our choice". It isn't a choice, it's a right.

As to separation of church and state. Even if the constitution doesn't specifically ban it, the supreme court has interpreted it to mean no religion period. I'll post a quote in a few seconRAB here.
 
You obviously didn't read my previous posts. First of all I said that the Supreme Court ruled that you can't favor religion over non-religion and refering to god does just that. Also you don't know what our forefathers wanted, did you ask them? It's the job of the courts to interpret what they meant and I have posted the Supreme Court ruling that basically said that it could not push religion over non-religion as this is doing. And also the pledge reaRAB under God, not god. This is refering to the one god that mono-theists believe in. This is not Allah, this is not Buddha. This is God, so that even if these would be considered goRAB, it would not be God, it would be Allah, Buddha, etc.
 
I am pretty sure the law doesn't say that you have to recite the flag. If you don't want to, or if you want to say it without the "Under GOD", then good for you. Since it is not mandatory that everyone recite it, Congress is not respecting any religion.
 
Ok, now go find us the definition of religion so we know exactly what it is that is prohibited; and find out if the prohibition extenRAB to the President issuing religious recommendations via proclamation.

FVF
 
So claiming that the country is under God isn't establishing any religion? Actually it's not but it's sponsoring a religion, which isn't allowed under many Supreme Court interpretations of the constitution. As I said, in some places in the south schools do force students to say the pledge.
 
A simple solution is in order: Allow recitation of the pledge (with the "under God" phrase included) and simultaneously allow dissent from recitation of the pledge by allowing students to simply sit in there seats quietly while other students stand and recite the pledge.
 
and even apart from "under God", why should schools force you to "respect" the flag. Being forced to stand doesn't respect it. The school is forcing political opinions on the students by forcing them to stand and respect these views. Under god or not, we have the right to free speech, and staying seated during the pledge is expressing our freedom of speech. I also ask what is the point of the pledge anyway? We have people in Kintergarden reciting the pledge indivisible, republic, do you really expect them to even know what these worRAB mean? They recite the pledge because they are given no alternative, the teacher tells them to recite it and they do even though they don't even know what they're saying. SounRAB a lot like brainwashing to me.
 
The original pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a socialist Baptist minister.

"In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the worRAB, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer."

By the Knights of Columbus! And all due to the Red scare! I find it quite ironic that it was written by a Socialist and amended due to fear of Communism.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

That said, no one should have to say it at all. Especially not the "under god" part.

The flag is a symbol, a piece of cloth, not a hoy icon.
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I. ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE PRINCIPLES

* The Constitution forbiRAB not only state practices that "aid one religion...or prefer one religion over another," but also those practices that "aid all religions" and thus endorse or prefer religion over nonreligion. Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing, 330 U.S. 1, 15 (1947).

* In determining whether a particular practice violates the Establishment Clause, courts must apply the three-pronged test established by the Supreme Court in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971). Where the government's action fails any one of the following three prongs, it is unconstitutional:

(1) whether the government's action has a secular purpose;
(2) whether the primary effect is to advance or endorse religion, and
(3) whether the policy or practice fosters an excessive entanglement between government and religion.
 
Removing "Under God" Would Make The U.S.A. A Better NATION ​

Removing "In God We Trust" from the nation's coins and notes and "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance would make the United States a better nation a better place because it would bring our civil law into line with the revealed word of God which, in Matthew 22:21, declares "Render unto Caesar the things which belong to Caesar, and unto God the things which belong to God." James Madison, Samuel Stillman, Isaac Backus and most likely the majority of the other noble men who established our system of government in the late 1780's believed that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in Matthew 22:21, ordained that the governments of God
 
How is learning the pledge any different from any of the other stuff they teach you in school.

I think its part of American history and citizenship.

The pledge is ok; it
 
We are forced to go to a school from 1st grade until we're 18. If we have enough money we may get into a private school. Other than that we are virtually forced to go to a public school. I'm pretty sure all schools are like this but in my school before morning anouncements they say, "please stand for the pledge" and say it. We aren't forced to stand but I know in some schools they are. I have 2 major problems with that.

1. "Under god"
This most definately violates the seperation of church and state clause but even if there is a god, we, as a nation ("one nation under god") are not under god. We are under a senate, house of representatives, president, and many other elected officials. Nowhere in the constitution does it mention anything about god. George Bush said something about that this didn't say there was a god but just acknowledged the faith we have in a supreme being. I challenge anyone to show me where claiming we are "under god" doesn't mean that god exists.

2. PUBLIC schools
We are forced to go to school from 1st grade until age 18. We have no choice unless we go to a public school or are homeschooled. We deserve the right of a free an public education. The reason we are forced to go to school is to learn and be ready to be active and contributing members to society when we are older. We are not here to praise this mighty country we live in. There is plenty of time during lunch to organize a PRIVATE meeting in which the pledge is said or even at the beginning or end of the day. This interferes with the learning environment. We are forced to go because we need to be educated, we are not here to here people praise this country. Do it all you want in PRIVATE schools, but let public schools dedicate their time to providing an education.
 
OK, there's been a change in our school's policy. 2 years ago a kid challenged the policy that he was forced to stand and got a lawyer to agree to argue his case and layed out to the school why they would surely lose and they should change the policy. They did and we all thought all would be the same after that. Well last year that kid graduated, so the school changed its policy. Obviously they won't admit that to be the reason, but it's obvious. We are now forced to stand for the pledge every day. That is a very low thing for the school to do and I'm in the process of filing a complaint with the school. This has been proven time and time again to be illegal (forcing kiRAB to stand) even though they can have a government sanctioned pledge (which I think is wrong). This is clear government-sponsored religion when they force people to stand and it's been ruled that forcing kiRAB to stand is to recognize it and be just as bad as forcing them to say it, which is also illegal. I still can't believe things like this can happen when there are explicit rulings saying it's illegal. They just hope no one will care enough to challenge it.
 
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