The Great Debate: Christians Vs. Atheists?

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onamatapia7

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I am a Christian and proud!
I will start off with an opening argument: Science says that every natural thing must have a cause. If that is true, how did the first natural thing that ever existed come to be? Wouldn't something supernatural (as in God) have had to create it?

Put your religious status in the source section
Let the games begin!
My God wouldn't have needed a creator because he is supernatural, and only natural things need a cause.
The first cause would have to have been supernatural because there would be nothing natural to cause it.
I said supernatural, not magic. there is a difference.
My god came from nothing. He has always been, which is possible since he is supernatural.
What the heck do you mean by special pleading?
My argument is from an actual debate that really happened, in which Christians won because of this argument.
Kalee Jean - are you calling me an idiot or someone else, because i am a Christian and im trying to prove that God exists.
God predates everything, including verbal communication.
the only thing he doesn't predate is himself.
As for Adam and Eve, they were the first humans, who God created. The ancient civilizations developed after them. Some are even mentioned in the Bible, such as the Egyptians or the Babylonians.
liliannx3 - I never said magic isn't supernatural. However, not everything that is supernatural is magic.
 
for the millionth time

NO ONE KNOWS BECAUSE NO ONE WAS THERE

INSUFFICIENT DATA

CLAIMING IT WAS GOD IS AS INANE AS CLAIMING IT WAS PAUL MCCARTNEY
 
Pretty much the only things we know are things we see and witness for ourselves and things that people tell us...whether face to face, book form, computer, paper, etc etc.

What we see is not always what is. People have statement that said that they had a million dollars with bernie madoff. Illusionists make you beleive you see something that is not really happening, just appearing to. So this tells us that our senses can be fooled. What we see and hear, may not necessarily be what we think they are.
People have gotten stuff wrong since stuff has been around. (whatever that means). Our newspapers and news programs have a team dedicated to fact checking and being skeptical, and everyday there is a "omissions and errors" section. Look what we missed...look what we screwed up on.
i just ran a 4 minute mile. Do you have proof of that? Yes, I just told you. THAT'S NOT PROOF. You just have as much proof of my running a 4 minute mile that you do of jesus existing and then walkign on water.
is there much difference between jesus actually walkign on water and people writing about it and people jsut writing abotu somethign that may or may not have actually happened? No there isnt. A lot of people get paid a lot of money to invent things that never did happen....its called fiction.

If we go back far enough in time, we do get to right before there was something living. What caused that? Why is it there? Why was it put there? i dont know. You dont know. No one knows.
Me, i dont care...it does not matter to me.

i know believers beleive that god has been around forever...and if you are saying we need to go back in time to when the first thing was, what ever happened to adam and eve?
Are you one of those christians that dismisses adam and eve as a nice sotry but in no way true? if so, then doesnt that mean that the bible has stuff that is not real? And if so, how do you knwo god is, if the only reason you know god is is because it says so in that book...which we just proved with adam and eve that tehre is made up stuff in it.

and if you want to goa nother root....why is god responsible. Why cant it be any of the other gods we have proof of the PREDATE your god.
There are civilizations with proof that existed before any evidence of yahweh comes onto the scene. How is that possible/ if god as been forever and the other gods just made up, why is there proof of other gods that predates your gods...seems to me that yahwah should have had some notes before these other gods. did your god predate verbal comunication....written language? If so, then how was god worshiped or discussed or talked about before language? Do you believe that mankind existed without language? What did mankind do before the bible was written BY MAN? If adam and eve were not real, was moses...was abraham? When does the fairy tale stop and history begin in the bible?

without science you would in all likelihood not be alive today. every one of your predecessors in some way shape or form benefited from science in the form of medicine, food, technology, transportation, shelter, water purification, etc etc. Without science, would you still beleive the earth is the center of the "solar" system?
does it bother you that "god did it" used to be the answer for everything...and that throghout the last oh, 1000 or so years one by one, things that were once attributed to god (just cuz there was no other explanation and peopel did not know better) can now be explained by some other reasonable, logical explanation? doesnt that taint all things that have "god did it" as the answer as having the possibility of being explained away? (It does by the way).
Does it bother you that the religion you now beleive was one of many many religions that was very cultural thousands of years ago that made it through because of the roman empire (if constantine had been a muslim, you would be praying to allah right now because the bible as u know it today would more than likely have never survived)...which between the romans and greeks is responsible for much of what you do and dont knwo today....the fact that in order for america to be founded on "freedom from and of religion" the first settlers need the british to force it laws and religions on its people enough that they said, ENOUGH. We cannot take it anymore.

I have no reason to believe the accuracy of things that were proliferated thousands of years ago in a land that had very little education, much power and corruption, little provisions for enough food and medicine for its people to survive. The fact that a book has survived today is a "miracle"...it does not mean that what that book talks about is real.
Plus, people on this planet beleive in Zenu from scientology, joseph smith's golden plates for latter day saints (mormon fame), abraham gave himself a circumcision, 72 virigins are waiting for muslims, if your ship gets destroyed its because Neptune/poseidon was against you. people on this planet believe
 
Science says everything has a natural cuase becuase science does not play in the supernatural realm.

However, since science is methodical picking away at all the old beliefs that things are supernatural in origin (i.e. illness cuased by germs, heredity comes from DNA, earth orits the sun, etc.) and none have been relagated to the supernatural, it is reasonable to assume that everything will have a natural cause. That's the only explaination science can provide.
 
This is simply the cosmological argument. You stated it wrong, and there are many arguments against it.

Premise 1: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
Premise 2: The universe began to exist.
Conclusion 1: Therefore, the universe must have a cause.

The problem with it is the conclusion while seemingly correct, doesn't say it has to be supernatural. It doesn't say that it has to be a GOD, and no where do we have to jump to that conclusion.

I'd play a similar card with the supernatural.

Premise 1: Everything has a natural cause
Premise 2: Everything has a beginning.
Conclusion: Therefor the universe had a natural beginning.

Since you can't point out anything without a beginning, and we can't point out anything without a natural starting point, we can just use this to get rid of all supernatural mumbo jumbo!

Anyway... Your statements are flawed.
 
"I will start off with an opening argument: Science says that every natural thing must have a cause."

And it's a false assertion. Argument lost.

Science says nothing of the kind.
Research vacuum fluctuations, virtual particles and the Casimir effect, for a start.

"My argument is from an actual debate that really happened, in which Christians won because of this argument."
cite sources please.
and "convinced you" is not the same as "won the argument."


Your playing with "supernatural" as a special category for no reason except that it suits you is just silly.
You haven't established that the "supernatural" exists outside "natural phenomena we haven't understood yet." Lots of things have moved out of the "supernatural" category over the centuries: thunder and lightning, earthquakes, disease...
It's not that difficult to see it could easily be a false category in its entirety. It's certainly nothing to base an argument on.
 
I am a Christian. I respect the views of ALL religions and the atheists too. People believe what they need to believe and attempting to ram those beliefs down each other's throats is a waste of time. My closest friends are Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, Jehovah's Witnesses, Bahai, Presbyterian, Atheists and Catholic. We all went to school together and our class reunions don't consist of religious arguments. In fact we're pretty cool. Find another rediculous game to play will you?
 
atheist

A first cause is impossible. If a first cause is necessary then your god also needed a creator. Where has science ever said a first cause was necessary?

Edit: There is no "supernatural". This word was created to describe mis or non-understood natural occurrences. If it exists it is natural.
 
God DID create it. He created the earth in seven days (although, seven days to him could be a million years to us).
And that's it. He did it.
Science means NOTHING.
 
atheist

My friend, simply because we do not know something, doesn't mean we have to make up an invisible being to explain it.

Say we didn't know how rain happened (as a hypothetical of course, because at one point, we didn't know). People used to say "the rain gods made it happen". Nowadays, we know that it's actually high pressured condensation which then results in precipitation. And the water cycle continues.

Religion was created to solve the unsolvable and answer the unanswerable. That doesn't make it true. Its a fabrication of the mind.

add: You say your "god" is supernatural. Well that just makes you sound like an idiot. Do you believe in Santa? I don't think so... well, at least I hope not. You can never really know with you Christians.

add: You can't say that it MUST have been supernatural. By saying that, you close your mind to all possibilities. You become a narrow-minded, irrational person. And no one wants to deal with you because you will not be swayed. But as atheists, we wait for real, scientific PROOF. There is a lack of proof to the existence of god, except for the bible and "faith." Both of which are spineless arguments.

add: You say magic isn't supernatural, but it actually is. It defies nature, making it supernatural. Keep throwing this idiotic reasoning at us and we will just keep shooting it down.
 
Church folks say something can't be created out of nothing, and then they smirk in their sleeves.

Yeah well then how did "God" do it?

The natural world does just fine without supernatural and biblical crap.
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We can never know if there was a first natural thing. I believe the Universe is eternal, expanding and contracting, living, dying, and being reborn over and over again, by the laws of physics. Life grew on this planet because all the conditions were right, and in a universe as vast as ours, with as many possible planetary conditions that can be, at least one planet capable of sustaining life had to happen. Just because it happened here, with us, doesn't make Earth the center of everything cosmic or metaphysical.
 
How can there be a debate between knowledge and ignorance? A debate demands actual facts on both sides. Atheism is an absence of facts, which is all you have when you are trying to prove the non-existence of anything.
 
"Science says that every natural thing must have a cause.'

Unsupported assertion.

"My God wouldn't have needed a creator because he is supernatural, and only natural things need a cause."

Special pleading.

"What the heck do you mean by special pleading?"

It's a logical fallacy.


"My god came from nothing. He has always been, which is possible since he is supernatural."

More special pleading.

PaulCyp: Too bad the burden of proof is on you. And too bad all you have is a straw man of atheism.
 
"Science says that every natural thing must have a cause.'

Unsupported assertion.

"My God wouldn't have needed a creator because he is supernatural, and only natural things need a cause."

Special pleading.

"What the heck do you mean by special pleading?"

It's a logical fallacy.


"My god came from nothing. He has always been, which is possible since he is supernatural."

More special pleading.

PaulCyp: Too bad the burden of proof is on you. And too bad all you have is a straw man of atheism.
 
"Sceince means NOTHING."

That explains a lot. You even misspelled 'science.'

The difference between atheists and theists is that us atheists aren't acting like we know who created the universe. We are waiting for proof.

Edit- Yes, Kalee Jean. I am the idiot because I misspelled "science" and "believe." I wish I would have learned the "i before e" rule. Oh, well.

I'm also the one who claimed science means "nothing" yet, I am still on the computer (science). Oh, this world would be SUCH a better place without science!!
 
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