The first?.. A story of anime archetypes.

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The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

dtm42 said:
The franchises of Slayers and Tenchi Muyo were also popular back in the day, and yet nowadays what you hear is former fans saying how they don't like it anymore. And I think to myself, "It took you this long to realise? For shame."
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Could you clarify your pronoun there? what is "it"?
Are you saying People liked all three but now don't like Love Hina... but still like the other two? Or one of the others? or any of the three?

Can I assume that means you like Slayers? Personally I got through the whole first series and I didn't find it all that great. Won't be watching the other series. I don't call people who have seen it idiots though.
According to your list you saw one episode of Love Hina. That's fine, you almost certainly would never like it. A split decision based on hating a first episode is valid.
For instance, I saw one episode of a Code Geass, which you rate a masterpiece, I didn't like a single second of it and personally wonder how anyone could enjoy it, probably will never watch another episode and guess what? this is the first and probably last mention you or anyone else has ever heard of my opinion of it.
Why? Because no matter how much you dislike something in a first episode, if you try calling an entire series crap because of it, even if you've read that others don't like it, you come off as an... idiot.
 
This is a question of origins.

All of us here can probably pick apart the archetypes and tropes that make up most of the manga series we see today. But, many of these archetypes had to come from someplace. Now i know someone could probably trace it back to classical literature, but i'm not really talking about that.

More like:

1.) Who was the first modern tsundere? "Modern" as in the bi-polar type that Rie Kugimiya has made her career off of and not the older type that was more of a transitional "I hate the main character, but now i'm starting to like him" phase than a mental disorder.

2.) Who was the first modern good guy/everyman with a harem?

The great big fixture of harem anime being the nice likeable fellow who is in over his head.


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Stuff more like that I suppose. Maybe even "First" is a bad word to use, since i'm really referring to not characters from obscure anime but characters who essentially defined (or in the case of the tsundere, redefined) the stereotypes that recur again and again.

Can anyone name a few? I'm curious as to see what shaped modern anime.
 
Charred Knight said:
They all love Tenchi in the OVA, it's just that Ayeka and Ryoko are the most vocal about it.

I also see no difference between Lum shocking Ataru, and Akane hitting Ranma into the sky.
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Perhaps I need to go back rewatch the OVAs, but I always thought all the girls loved Tenchi (an older brother, a great guy, a science project), but only Ryoko and Ayeka were in love with him and wanted to have his babies.

Again, I feel Akane is more level-headed. As the show progresses, Akane does a lot more of "You jerk, Ranma" and running away in tears than punching Ranma to the stars. Meanwhile, Lum always tried to kill Ataru and Shinobou in the episodes I saw. I remember one episode where Lum stalks them through the phone, jams the frequency and then proceeds to bring lighting down on them before she eventually tries to put them through a lover's suicide.

Akane is agressive (tsundere), Lum is a psycho (yandere).
 
The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

Wu Ming said:
1.) Who was the first modern tsundere? "Modern" as in the bi-polar type that Rie Kugimiya has made her career off of and not the older type that was more of a transitional "I hate the main character, but now i'm starting to like him" phase than a mental disorder.

2.) Who was the first modern good guy/everyman with a harem?
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1. Though I wouldn't exactly say she falls under one of the two character types that the archetypal tsundere girl falls under, Madoka Ayukawa from 1988's Kimagure Orange Road is the earliest example of a tsundere I can recall. Her behavior towards love interest Kyosuke Kasuga would depend on her mood, especially with her best friend Hikaru also having interest in him. But, Madoka never went as far as to physically beat or berate him like the more well-known tsunderes of today. There were only a couple cases I recall from the first series of her slapping Kyosuke (one as a front for her reputation as a delinquent, another being justified from Kyosuke misunderstanding Madoka's reputation.)

2. Don't know what you mean by modern good guy. Of what I've seen, Tenchi Masaki is the earliest nice guy that I've seen from the 1992 OAV series Tenchi Muyo: Ryo-ohki to have an unwanted harem of alien girls winding up in his household. But if you are looking for a recent example, Keitaro Urashima of Love Hina from 2000 features the guy as a nice guy ronin student taking over a girl's dormitory because his grandmother, the inn manager, retired from the position which lands him in a dormitory of several girls who follow different romance anime archetypes.
 
The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

Wu Ming said:
Can anyone name a few? I'm curious as to see what shaped modern anime.
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The Tenchi franchise was earlier, but Love Hina is what popularised (amongst idiots) the Harem Genre.

Sayaka Yumi from Mazinger Z was one of the first examples of Tsundere, and Lum from Urusei Yatsura popularised (amongst idiotic hypocrites) the character type.
 
I think that in search of origins of anime archetypes we shouldn't look just at M&A- like nearly everything in culture it had something before. Like western fantasy that takes ideas from medieval chronicles and legends M&A are based on Japanese culture.

Of course there are some cases when we can clearly say what was the "prototype" of some idea like Creamy Mami for "singing magical girls" and Dragon Ball for "happy-go-lucky choosen one", but usually the orgins of some ideas are very difficult (especially for us:) to find)
 
the first modern Tsundere was Lum from Urusei Yatsura which came out in 1979.
 
The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

Hey, dtm, could you continue insulting people's intelligence because they enjoy bad shows? Because no one does that with live action television, or reality TV.
 
The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

Dorcas_Aurelia said:
Hey, dtm, could you continue insulting people's intelligence because they enjoy bad shows? Because no one does that with live action television, or reality TV.
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No one should do that with anything quite frankly. No one's opinion is the standard for what constitutes as a good or bad show.

oh and dtm42, high horse:get off it
 
The Rei Ayanami type... does it have another name?

Very capable, emotionally distant, unreadable, but seemingly has feelings for hero. TV Tropes calls her anExtreme Doormat, although that doesn't fully explain the character type.

Since NGE it has been has a staple personality type when you have a host or harem of girls, especially ones where action is at least a subplot....9 out of 10 times, has short blue hair.

Is there a precursor to Rei?
 
I was going to say Lum, too, for the tsundere origin, but she's almost more of a reverse-tsundere character (i.e. sweet on the outside but with a vindictively temperamental nature hidden underneath).

The original Tenchi Muyo OVAs certainly deserve the most credit for founding what we now call harem series, although the Oh My Goddess!! OVAs which came out at about the same time also arguably contributed. (Granted, there was only one true love relationship involved, but it was a case of a nice guy cohabitating with multiple ladies and picking up additional outside love interests from time to time.)

Hmmm, I'm thinking John Opplinger once addressed either or both of these issues. I'll check in his archive later in the day and see if I can find any of his Ask John pieces about this.
 
I'm wondering who started the trend of blond "hot" woman with glasses thing? Not sure if it started in anime or elsewhere, but I can't seem to find who started it first.
 
I always thought Lum was more of yandere than a tsundere because she would get pretty crazy with those lighting strikes. I haven't seen a lot of Urusei Yatsura, but Lum seemed a little more aggressive than a typical tsundere. She does, however, meet the Rie Kugimiya-type of tsundere that seems to be the standard nowadays. I always considered those types to be crazy bitches, but that could just be sign of how anime has changed over the years.

Personally, since I don't count Lum as a tsundere, the earliest tsundere I've seen is Akane Tendo from another Rumiko Takahashi work, Ranma 1/2. She's not as violent as Louise or Nagi, but I think the label of "Tsundere" fits her much better than the others because she's much sweeter.
 
Spastic Minnow said:
The Rei Ayanami type... does it have another name?

Is there a precursor to Rei?
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Lol, i always called that one "Robot Girl" due to lack of emotions.

And i always thought she essentially defined that role, although there have been variations like "Yandere Robot/Doormat Girl" :wink:
 
The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

dtm42 said:
The Tenchi franchise was earlier, but Love Hina is what popularised (amongst idiots) the Harem Genre.
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Yes yes, we get it, everyone with tastes differing from yours is an idiot :roll: :roll:
 
Alright, i've got a big one for you all:

1.) The First Childhood friend who acts like a kid sister and ends up as the Love Interest.

I mean, that one's been done to death in anime. There's gotta be an origin point.

2.) Conversely, what about the "One True Love who comes from a foreign/mythical/far off land but will be with the main character from now until eternity because its Fate" (that and the fans would murder the mangaka if it did not turn out that way :wink: )

Is Belldandy the first?

Or

3.) The "Other Childhood friend" who acts like a kid sister but has an interest in the main character but is Fated to Lose regardless of what she does because she is not the destined one. (that and the fans would murder her and the mangaka for getting in the way of the "true love").

:P
 
1. I think the best link to early tsundere would be Lum from Urusei Yatsura, as Charred Knight. But Of course this can be disputed because some see Lum as not quite fitting the roll of a tsundere. Also some might go so far as to argue that the actual original tsundere was Sayaka Yumi from Mazinger Z. I find this to be a bit of a stretch but I can understand the reasoning. I think one way or another she might have very well been the first (or at least the proto-type of) tsundere.

2. I think it's quite safe to assume that, as people have said already, Tenchi Muyo is considered to be the first harem. I honestly can't think of anything else before it so that would have to be my default answer.

I like this topic idea and I hope it keeps going. We could try thinking up other firsts to investigate into and it could lead to some interesting discussions.
 
The First?: A story of Anime Archtypes

Dorcas_Aurelia said:
Hey, dtm, could you continue insulting people's intelligence because they enjoy bad shows?
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Sure dude, if that's what you want.

animeboy12 said:
oh and dtm42, high horse:get off it
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So I believe that people who think that bad shows are good shows are idiots. It doesn't mean I'm on a horse, let alone a high horse. And if I was, why would I want to get off?
 
Key said:
I was going to say Lum, too, for the tsundere origin, but she's almost more of a reverse-tsundere character (i.e. sweet on the outside but with a vindictively temperamental nature hidden underneath).

The original Tenchi Muyo OVAs certainly deserve the most credit for founding what we now call harem series, although the Oh My Goddess!! OVAs which came out at about the same time also arguably contributed. (Granted, there was only one true love relationship involved, but it was a case of a nice guy cohabitating with multiple ladies and picking up additional outside love interests from time to time.)

Hmmm, I'm thinking John Opplinger once addressed either or both of these issues. I'll check in his archive later in the day and see if I can find any of his Ask John pieces about this.
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When you consider the anime version of Akane, and Naru are considered Tsundere and both are clearly based off of Lum, than I see no reason why we shouldn't include Lum.

As for Harem, the first modern harem was definitly Tenchi Muyo! with Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, and Fushigi Yugi, being series that came before Tenchi Muyo! but where not really modern harem as we know it.

Urusei Yatsura was the first guy surrounded by beautiful women, but in that case only two of them loved Ataru and the rest hated him because of the fact that the man was a pervert whose dream was to have a harem.

Ranma 1/2, and Fushigi Yugi while having a sizable romantic tangle really didn't have the size that I think you want.
 
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