The Dark Knight SPOILER thread **Do NOT read if you've not seen it**
- Thread starter TorontoBlonde
- Start date
Completely agree! While I do think everyone carried the Film together (including Bale, I didn't think his voice was THAT bad IMO) but for me personally it was both Aaron Eckhart and Heath Ledger who truely stole the show.
These 2 played both of my favorite "Batman" Villians of all time and IMO they truely did get them both right
.
Heath took the role and made it his own and in the weird way he managed to bring some sort of a weird charm to The Joker
. Cruel but funny he really was the Villian you'd love to hate. Although I was expecting Heath to do well anyway (having seen the Trailers and some of his other Movies); it was Aaron who actually took me by surprise.
He was an unknown Actor for me personally and because I've never seen him in anything else before I was little bit worried he might not be able to get Harvey Dent/Two-Face the way I'd like him to (also there was very little of him in the Trailers) but then I was willing to give him a chance anyway and boy am I sure glad I did. Not only is he such brilliant Actor; he's even more BETTER than I ever expected him to be! He was just so perfect as Harvey Dent/Two-Face and he really did manage to draw me into his Story. Now I really can't see anybody else doing as much of a better job as he did. I truely do hope he come's back in the 3rd Film.
And again I agree about the wonderful Hospital scene. Seeing The Joker manipulate Harvey Dent/Two-Face was so chilling yet at the same time I actually found myself agreeing with some of The Joker's points! A bit of a home truth about today's society in a really twisted way.
So all in all yeah, Aaron Eckhart and Heath Ledger both deserve all the praise they are now getting IMO.
P.S. I don't agree with the whole "the Movie was too long". I thought the Movie had just about the right length IMO and it just left me with wanting for more but then that's just me. Agree to disagree.
These 2 played both of my favorite "Batman" Villians of all time and IMO they truely did get them both right
.Heath took the role and made it his own and in the weird way he managed to bring some sort of a weird charm to The Joker
. Cruel but funny he really was the Villian you'd love to hate. Although I was expecting Heath to do well anyway (having seen the Trailers and some of his other Movies); it was Aaron who actually took me by surprise. He was an unknown Actor for me personally and because I've never seen him in anything else before I was little bit worried he might not be able to get Harvey Dent/Two-Face the way I'd like him to (also there was very little of him in the Trailers) but then I was willing to give him a chance anyway and boy am I sure glad I did. Not only is he such brilliant Actor; he's even more BETTER than I ever expected him to be
! He was just so perfect as Harvey Dent/Two-Face and he really did manage to draw me into his Story. Now I really can't see anybody else doing as much of a better job as he did. I truely do hope he come's back in the 3rd Film.And again I agree about the wonderful Hospital scene. Seeing The Joker manipulate Harvey Dent/Two-Face was so chilling yet at the same time I actually found myself agreeing with some of The Joker's points
! A bit of a home truth about today's society in a really twisted way.So all in all yeah, Aaron Eckhart and Heath Ledger both deserve all the praise they are now getting IMO
.P.S. I don't agree with the whole "the Movie was too long". I thought the Movie had just about the right length IMO and it just left me with wanting for more but then that's just me. Agree to disagree
.j_dawgruesch
New member
The whole movie was just incredibly awesome. I saw it on iMAX and it is breathtaking.
Some poeple didn't like the end but i thought i twas PERFECT!
BAtman speeding away on his bike, cops chasing after him, now a renegade as Oldman executes the perfect monologue. (Oldman was incredible by the way in this)
"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it neeRAB right now.
So we'll hunt him.......because he can take it.
Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector.......a dark knight"
Some poeple didn't like the end but i thought i twas PERFECT!
BAtman speeding away on his bike, cops chasing after him, now a renegade as Oldman executes the perfect monologue. (Oldman was incredible by the way in this)
"Because he's the hero that Gotham deserves, but not the one it neeRAB right now.
So we'll hunt him.......because he can take it.
Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector.......a dark knight"
septemberlushh
New member
Because it's not about the length in minutes. There's no pre-defined set number of minutes a movie should be. I felt it was half an hour too long, without knowing how long it actually was and without knowing how long other movies were. It's more about things like balance, pacing and emotional involvement with the characters. Eg the extended version of The Fellowship of the Ring actually feels shorter than the theatrical release, because it is better balanced with more character development.
So to say TDK was too long is another way of saying it failed in other ways. I was never emotionally involved with the main character, Bruce, for example. He came across as a rich kid who used his money to spoil his ex-girlfriend's date. I never cared about his bouts of angst. Likewise I never cared about Rachel, who had little going on as a character and was just a girl who hung around with the two guys. There was no tension in the scene where she was threatened because I didn't care whether she lived or died.
The Joker was good, but as the film progressed he kept pulling new tricks out of the bag and, without limitations, he became less credible and less human. So ultimately he didn't work as a character either. With Harvey I was confused for a long while as to whether he was a bad guy - the plot points designed to establish him as honest merely served to make him seem more tricksy. Eventually I kinda accepted he was good and then he became evil. That twist didn't work for me because it was never really clear why he would not go after the Joker when he had the chance. It was probably the least interesting thing they could have done with the character.
If you are not emotionally involved in the movie then it starts to drag, and there's no pay-off for staying the extra time.
So to say TDK was too long is another way of saying it failed in other ways. I was never emotionally involved with the main character, Bruce, for example. He came across as a rich kid who used his money to spoil his ex-girlfriend's date. I never cared about his bouts of angst. Likewise I never cared about Rachel, who had little going on as a character and was just a girl who hung around with the two guys. There was no tension in the scene where she was threatened because I didn't care whether she lived or died.
The Joker was good, but as the film progressed he kept pulling new tricks out of the bag and, without limitations, he became less credible and less human. So ultimately he didn't work as a character either. With Harvey I was confused for a long while as to whether he was a bad guy - the plot points designed to establish him as honest merely served to make him seem more tricksy. Eventually I kinda accepted he was good and then he became evil. That twist didn't work for me because it was never really clear why he would not go after the Joker when he had the chance. It was probably the least interesting thing they could have done with the character.
If you are not emotionally involved in the movie then it starts to drag, and there's no pay-off for staying the extra time.
Manic aka Miss Murder
New member
What I took from the name 'Harvey Two-Face' was that after police academy he ended up working for Internal Affairs, hence a policeman investigating policemen so he was 'two-faced'.
I went to see this earlier and the sound went funny right at the climax of the film! That SPOILED it for me. 
Could barely hear a word anyone was saying for about the last half hour of the film. I think we all thought it part of the movie for a while, some weird narrative technique. The music was playing fine. RAB.
And then there were the people in the cinema... A group of guys in the same row talked constantly and these 2 girls came in right towarRAB the end, sat down next to us, flashing their mobiles around. The one girl's phone started ringing and she actually answered it! I gave her an unimpressed look, which she didn't seem to like much and then they got up and left. I mean, WTF?
Sorry, I know this is not the moaning thread but I'm so annoyed. At least I didn't pay for it I s'pose (got one of those carRAB). I'm gonna go and see it again in hour and so I'll come back with my thoughts on the movie later. If I can hear it this time.
Could barely hear a word anyone was saying for about the last half hour of the film. I think we all thought it part of the movie for a while, some weird narrative technique. The music was playing fine. RAB. And then there were the people in the cinema... A group of guys in the same row talked constantly and these 2 girls came in right towarRAB the end, sat down next to us, flashing their mobiles around. The one girl's phone started ringing and she actually answered it! I gave her an unimpressed look, which she didn't seem to like much and then they got up and left. I mean, WTF?
Sorry, I know this is not the moaning thread but I'm so annoyed. At least I didn't pay for it I s'pose (got one of those carRAB). I'm gonna go and see it again in hour and so I'll come back with my thoughts on the movie later. If I can hear it this time.
**Promisy**
New member
You do know thats the whole point? Have you even seen Batman Begins?
I don't particularly like the character, but, again, the groundwork for this was laid in the previous film.
He is psychotic, thats the point. Not sure what you mean by 'less credible'. This is a comic book villain after all...
Thats the point, and why the character development was good. Dent is neither good or evil, his desires for justice, fuelled by his temper, can lead him astray. You shouldn't want it to be so obvious, with everyone divided up into 'good' or 'bad'.
Hence "Two Face"
I am sorry you didn't get involved. But millions of people did. I thought it was very good, the characters were well developed, the plot was intricate and the fil was not too long.
I don't particularly like the character, but, again, the groundwork for this was laid in the previous film.
He is psychotic, thats the point. Not sure what you mean by 'less credible'. This is a comic book villain after all...
Thats the point, and why the character development was good. Dent is neither good or evil, his desires for justice, fuelled by his temper, can lead him astray. You shouldn't want it to be so obvious, with everyone divided up into 'good' or 'bad'.
Hence "Two Face"
I am sorry you didn't get involved. But millions of people did. I thought it was very good, the characters were well developed, the plot was intricate and the fil was not too long.
What I thought:
Heath as The Joker - Absolutely amazing. Seriously one of the best performances I have ever seen from anyone and it is such a massive pity that he will never get to hear all those plaudits. The thing is though, despite all the obvious hype around him, I forgot that it was Heath, and to me that's an indication of just how damn good he is. He completely disappeared into that character and made him into someone who wasn't 'grr argh!' scary but genuine, properly disturbing. Just watching and listening to him is an unsettling experience, no more so than in the scene where he holRAB one of the fake Batman's hostage and recorRAB a video for the press. I think the thing that makes him so disturbing is that he breaks one of the first rules of writing - he has no dicernable motive. He's not doing it for money, power, revenge, infamy or because he's a bastard. He's doing it just because. That makes him a total unknown and you really do have no idea what he's going to do next. Nolan's decision to have no backstory for the character really paid off here because as he starts to tell a completely different version of how he got his facial scars you begin to realise you know nothing of this 'thing' at all and that induces fear. One thing you can glean from him is he is a Class A crazy but in a horribly controlled manner. It makes those few times he seems to lose control stand out even more like when he almost angrilly tells the mobsters he's not crazy (inviting you to think he's an escaped Arkham patient who didn't think there was anything wrong with him?) and when he realises neither boat has blown the other up. Finally there's his makeup which I think was done brillaintly. It's like his face is decaying in some ways.
Christian as Batman - Nicely understated although I don't think he was given as much to do as last time. The gravelly bat voice still doesn't sound quite right though. And whilst he's very good at Batman and great at getting that inner conflict across, in some ways I think his Bruce Wayne act is even better. Like the moment where he crashes his lambo 'accidentally' to protect a police car from being rammed and then instead of taking the credit, says he was trying to run the lights and does the dumb act. The character everyone sees a Wayne is every bit as complicated as the Batman persona, an odd mixture of playboy, philanthropist and business man. But he should have taken his shirt off more...
Aaron Harvey/Two-Face - Another one who was completely brilliant. He made Harvey's descent utterly believable and, because he made him a good man to start with, also utterly tragic. Wonderful foreshadowing with the nickname and the coin. Knowing what was to come made those moments quite stomach clenching. And as to the facial scarring? Completely horrific if somewhat hard to believe. Could he really live with his face like that or would he succumb to massive infection? Although I did like the way they threw in a mention to him refusing pain releif which could obviously be seen as another partial catalyst to why he loses it. Lastly, is he really dead? They didn't say he was dead, I don't remember them checking his pulse and his coin landed 'life' side up. I think Nolan et al might have been hedging their bets on that one, leaving it open in case they want to bring him back.
Gary as Lt Gordon - He really just owns this part. He perfectly plays that one good cop in a corrupt town with a great mixture of weariness and hope. The businesslike manner he gets things done and his subsequent disbelief almost at being promoted was great. And I'm so glad that in the end they didn't turn him against Batman. Batman neeRAB te ally and Gordon neeRAB to believe that there's someone extra special fighting out there to stop things looking hopeless. Also I was completely sure he wasn't dead so that was no surprise.
Maggie as Rachel - She's a good actress but she was giving little to do except die. She was brillaint in that scene, trying to comfort Harvey and I respect her decision in the end to marry him and leave Bruce and all his myriad of issues behind. It's a pity that Maggie didn't get a chance to play her in the first film where she had more involvement.
Michael as Alfred - Plays the role with such lovable charm, if only he'd been in it a bit more (what happened to him during the party scene when the Joker came in? Maybe I missed him doing something vital but I expected him to step in and try to stop them hurting Rachel). Nice to hear a bit of his backstory too. He and Bruce/Christian have a wonderfully easy gong chemistry.
Morgan as Lucius - I always thought this was a genius bit of casting. Glad to see that unlike some of the others he did get more to do this time and that he still retains his morality. His calmly amused put down of the employee threatening to expose Batman was just excellent.
Cillan as Scarecrow - I wish he was in it more but I can see why they would decide they had enough villains. Nice that they wrapped up the loose end of his escape from last time but I'd love to see more from him in the third film. Perhaps on the road to recovery mentally, being given a second chance in society and Batman doesn't like it, bringing up the issue of what happens to the criminals of Gotham after they've done the time.
General plot - Not a typical beginning, middle and end by any stretch, more like lots and lots of middle and a bit of end. But, if this turns out to be trilogy then this is the middle so that makes sense. I missed the Batcave and I hope Wayne manor is up and running again by the next film - about the only thing that this film I think lacked in comparison to the first was some of the atmosphere (this one seemed more open whereas the first more claustrophobic and visually dark, playing on fear) and I think the cave was part of that. The Joker's plans were handled very cleverly from correctly predicting that people would turn on each other in a crisis to switching the addresses knowing that Batman would chose to save Rachel but actually wanting Harvey to live so he could bring him down. The plot was complex but kept tight and nothing seemed to be there superfilously..There was an awful lot of tension, like with the assassination of the Judge and Commisioner and the decision to kill off Rachel was genuinely unexpected although necessary to take Harvey where they wanted him to go. About the only thing in the plot that I thought didn't work was Gordon's 'death'. I don't know if we were meant to realise that was him masked in that police truck but it became immediately obvious to me. Everything else though was well planned out and nicely revealed - there were plenty of moments where I went 'oh sh*t!' realising what was about to happen e.g. the guy in the police station with the bomb in him. It's a pity though that the Joker's story didn't have a more final ending. Yes, he was defeated because he was proved ultimately wrong when the people on the boats decided not to sacrifice one another, but it would have been nice for there to have been some mention of him being locked in a very padded cell for the rest of his days just to finalise things. Especially since it's very unlikely we'll be seeing the character again.
The action - Special mention because it was awesome. There really were some jaw dropping moment - like the Tumbler driving under the truck, the bat pod driving up the wall, flipping the Joker's lorry and escaping the building in Hong Kong via plane. About a dozen times the bro turned to me and asked 'How much was their budget?!' Truth is, not an obscene amount by modern Hollywood standarRAB and they used it very well.
Probably as damn near the perfect film as you're ever likely to see (although I resevre the right to always think that Gordon's closing speech was cheesy in an otherwise cheese free zone
)
Heath as The Joker - Absolutely amazing. Seriously one of the best performances I have ever seen from anyone and it is such a massive pity that he will never get to hear all those plaudits. The thing is though, despite all the obvious hype around him, I forgot that it was Heath, and to me that's an indication of just how damn good he is. He completely disappeared into that character and made him into someone who wasn't 'grr argh!' scary but genuine, properly disturbing. Just watching and listening to him is an unsettling experience, no more so than in the scene where he holRAB one of the fake Batman's hostage and recorRAB a video for the press. I think the thing that makes him so disturbing is that he breaks one of the first rules of writing - he has no dicernable motive. He's not doing it for money, power, revenge, infamy or because he's a bastard. He's doing it just because. That makes him a total unknown and you really do have no idea what he's going to do next. Nolan's decision to have no backstory for the character really paid off here because as he starts to tell a completely different version of how he got his facial scars you begin to realise you know nothing of this 'thing' at all and that induces fear. One thing you can glean from him is he is a Class A crazy but in a horribly controlled manner. It makes those few times he seems to lose control stand out even more like when he almost angrilly tells the mobsters he's not crazy (inviting you to think he's an escaped Arkham patient who didn't think there was anything wrong with him?) and when he realises neither boat has blown the other up. Finally there's his makeup which I think was done brillaintly. It's like his face is decaying in some ways.
Christian as Batman - Nicely understated although I don't think he was given as much to do as last time. The gravelly bat voice still doesn't sound quite right though. And whilst he's very good at Batman and great at getting that inner conflict across, in some ways I think his Bruce Wayne act is even better. Like the moment where he crashes his lambo 'accidentally' to protect a police car from being rammed and then instead of taking the credit, says he was trying to run the lights and does the dumb act. The character everyone sees a Wayne is every bit as complicated as the Batman persona, an odd mixture of playboy, philanthropist and business man. But he should have taken his shirt off more...
Aaron Harvey/Two-Face - Another one who was completely brilliant. He made Harvey's descent utterly believable and, because he made him a good man to start with, also utterly tragic. Wonderful foreshadowing with the nickname and the coin. Knowing what was to come made those moments quite stomach clenching. And as to the facial scarring? Completely horrific if somewhat hard to believe. Could he really live with his face like that or would he succumb to massive infection? Although I did like the way they threw in a mention to him refusing pain releif which could obviously be seen as another partial catalyst to why he loses it. Lastly, is he really dead? They didn't say he was dead, I don't remember them checking his pulse and his coin landed 'life' side up. I think Nolan et al might have been hedging their bets on that one, leaving it open in case they want to bring him back.
Gary as Lt Gordon - He really just owns this part. He perfectly plays that one good cop in a corrupt town with a great mixture of weariness and hope. The businesslike manner he gets things done and his subsequent disbelief almost at being promoted was great. And I'm so glad that in the end they didn't turn him against Batman. Batman neeRAB te ally and Gordon neeRAB to believe that there's someone extra special fighting out there to stop things looking hopeless. Also I was completely sure he wasn't dead so that was no surprise.
Maggie as Rachel - She's a good actress but she was giving little to do except die. She was brillaint in that scene, trying to comfort Harvey and I respect her decision in the end to marry him and leave Bruce and all his myriad of issues behind. It's a pity that Maggie didn't get a chance to play her in the first film where she had more involvement.
Michael as Alfred - Plays the role with such lovable charm, if only he'd been in it a bit more (what happened to him during the party scene when the Joker came in? Maybe I missed him doing something vital but I expected him to step in and try to stop them hurting Rachel). Nice to hear a bit of his backstory too. He and Bruce/Christian have a wonderfully easy gong chemistry.
Morgan as Lucius - I always thought this was a genius bit of casting. Glad to see that unlike some of the others he did get more to do this time and that he still retains his morality. His calmly amused put down of the employee threatening to expose Batman was just excellent.
Cillan as Scarecrow - I wish he was in it more but I can see why they would decide they had enough villains. Nice that they wrapped up the loose end of his escape from last time but I'd love to see more from him in the third film. Perhaps on the road to recovery mentally, being given a second chance in society and Batman doesn't like it, bringing up the issue of what happens to the criminals of Gotham after they've done the time.
General plot - Not a typical beginning, middle and end by any stretch, more like lots and lots of middle and a bit of end. But, if this turns out to be trilogy then this is the middle so that makes sense. I missed the Batcave and I hope Wayne manor is up and running again by the next film - about the only thing that this film I think lacked in comparison to the first was some of the atmosphere (this one seemed more open whereas the first more claustrophobic and visually dark, playing on fear) and I think the cave was part of that. The Joker's plans were handled very cleverly from correctly predicting that people would turn on each other in a crisis to switching the addresses knowing that Batman would chose to save Rachel but actually wanting Harvey to live so he could bring him down. The plot was complex but kept tight and nothing seemed to be there superfilously..There was an awful lot of tension, like with the assassination of the Judge and Commisioner and the decision to kill off Rachel was genuinely unexpected although necessary to take Harvey where they wanted him to go. About the only thing in the plot that I thought didn't work was Gordon's 'death'. I don't know if we were meant to realise that was him masked in that police truck but it became immediately obvious to me. Everything else though was well planned out and nicely revealed - there were plenty of moments where I went 'oh sh*t!' realising what was about to happen e.g. the guy in the police station with the bomb in him. It's a pity though that the Joker's story didn't have a more final ending. Yes, he was defeated because he was proved ultimately wrong when the people on the boats decided not to sacrifice one another, but it would have been nice for there to have been some mention of him being locked in a very padded cell for the rest of his days just to finalise things. Especially since it's very unlikely we'll be seeing the character again.
The action - Special mention because it was awesome. There really were some jaw dropping moment - like the Tumbler driving under the truck, the bat pod driving up the wall, flipping the Joker's lorry and escaping the building in Hong Kong via plane. About a dozen times the bro turned to me and asked 'How much was their budget?!' Truth is, not an obscene amount by modern Hollywood standarRAB and they used it very well.
Probably as damn near the perfect film as you're ever likely to see (although I resevre the right to always think that Gordon's closing speech was cheesy in an otherwise cheese free zone
)munkismile
New member
I'm ashamed to say I tend to have a really bad habit of rooting for the enemies all the time even though I know I SHOULD be rooting for the goodies(unless a certain enemy gets on my nerves THEN I'd root for the goodies
).
(unless a certain enemy gets on my nerves THEN I'd root for the goodies).Zulfiqar Z
New member
best bits were:
the pencil scene
the batpod driving up a wall - the whole cinema went 'oooooooh!'
lucius fox putting the blackmailer in his place
the pencil scene
the batpod driving up a wall - the whole cinema went 'oooooooh!'
lucius fox putting the blackmailer in his place
Treblinka_
New member
I also don't think not seeing Batman Begins spoils peoples enjoyment of this film, I picked it up for a fiver (it was a special edition, too!) and when I watched it back in 2006 I didn't think much of it. But after watching it again just before I went to see TDK I found it enjoyable and it lay the foundations for Batman's character (eg how Bruce Wayne became who is is now etc). I am glad I saw Batman Begins beforehand however because it explained The Scarecrow's appearance in TDK and how it tied in with the films "current events".
Hmm.. Fair point.
Presumably they intended to bring him back in the next (im presumin here), but as heath was dead they never filmed a death scene to completely finish him off.
What about Harvey Dent's funeral?!
Surely they'd've got his body if he was beside Gordon at the end?
Presumably they intended to bring him back in the next (im presumin here), but as heath was dead they never filmed a death scene to completely finish him off.
What about Harvey Dent's funeral?!
Surely they'd've got his body if he was beside Gordon at the end?
javascript
New member
You know that's my one complaint about the film. I think Bale overdoes the Batman voice to the point where I actually thought 'is this guy for real?'
Loved everything else about it.
I think we might just see Selina Kyle/Catwoman in the next one. Why? Maybe I am making too much of this, but firstly Lucius Fox making that comment about the new Batsuit protecting him from cats. Secondly, now Rachel is out of the picture there is no lead female for the third film. With Rachel alive Bruce would never fall for another woman and the Batman/Catwoman love hate relationship works because they do 'love' each other, or at least want to get in each others pants. I think Catwoman is one of the few villains that would work in Nolan's vision of Batman. They wouldn't need any of that 'nine lives' stuff Burton did. They wouldn't even need some flashy catsuit, just a some screwed up chick in black leather, along the lines of this http://www.eddiewong.net/wp-content/uploaRAB/2007/03/takara_catwoman_cool_girls_1.jpg
Loved everything else about it.
I think we might just see Selina Kyle/Catwoman in the next one. Why? Maybe I am making too much of this, but firstly Lucius Fox making that comment about the new Batsuit protecting him from cats. Secondly, now Rachel is out of the picture there is no lead female for the third film. With Rachel alive Bruce would never fall for another woman and the Batman/Catwoman love hate relationship works because they do 'love' each other, or at least want to get in each others pants. I think Catwoman is one of the few villains that would work in Nolan's vision of Batman. They wouldn't need any of that 'nine lives' stuff Burton did. They wouldn't even need some flashy catsuit, just a some screwed up chick in black leather, along the lines of this http://www.eddiewong.net/wp-content/uploaRAB/2007/03/takara_catwoman_cool_girls_1.jpg
Not sure what you mean? Oldham has had his ups and downs but is a fairly high profile actor. Was Dracula in the Coppola film, and in a number of other successful British and American films; and has lived in the states for years - what is weird about his sister being in EE? They are Londoners, from a relatively working-class family - Gary just got lucky and was talented enough to have an international career.