Did they or did they not take stuff from most of those songs I posted? You yourself pointed out similarities, riRAB, and lyrics that were taken from other songs. I don't know why you keep saying I'm not bringing forward any real proof. Plus you can't really bring bias into this, because you are judging the songs with strong Led Zeppelin bias. All I want to do is admit that Led Zeppelin tended to take parts of songs or adapt songs from other artists and then not give them credit for it. It's as simple as that.
The Case For/ The Case Against..
- Thread starter Lance P
- Start date
Veronica G
New member
well maybe its my computer idk, and honestly it doesnt really bother me that much it makes me appreciate my music more =)
Jennifer 8.29.09
New member
Case Against
Well it's Nirvana's worst studio album. Gone is the rough, grunge inspired sound of Bleach and in comes a more polished sound which doesn't suit them. Watching live footage of them, even in the Nevermind period, they played loud and sloppily with lots of feedback and distortion and they rocked, all of this is absent in the more user-friendly sheen of this album.
Quite a bit of filler as well, there's nothing wrong with songs like Stay Away and Lounge Act but they're hardly interesting. You could say the same of Bleach but but then its all with that sludgy sound which i prefer far more.
Well it's Nirvana's worst studio album. Gone is the rough, grunge inspired sound of Bleach and in comes a more polished sound which doesn't suit them. Watching live footage of them, even in the Nevermind period, they played loud and sloppily with lots of feedback and distortion and they rocked, all of this is absent in the more user-friendly sheen of this album.
Quite a bit of filler as well, there's nothing wrong with songs like Stay Away and Lounge Act but they're hardly interesting. You could say the same of Bleach but but then its all with that sludgy sound which i prefer far more.
You want specific examples of Led Zeppelin stealing songs/riRAB/lyrics? I can give you plently off the top of my head, Page made a career off of ripping off other artists, especially blues artists and then giving himself songwriting credits. There is nothing wrong with covering a song, as long as credit is given. So, some songs Led Zeppelin "adapted" (a lot of times just changed the song title slightly for the original):
"Dazed and Confused" was by Jake Holmes, "Whole Lotta Love" was adapted from a Willie Dixon song called "You Need Love," ""How Many More Years" is adapted from Howlin' Wolf's -"How Many More Times," "Gallow's Pole" was nicked from Leadbelly's "Gallis Tree," "Black Mountainside" was adapted from Bert Janch's "Black Waterside," ""Bron- Y-Stomp" was adapted from a Bert Jansch/John Renbourn arrangement of "The Waggoner's Lad."
In some cases they almost word for word took lyrics. In others the songs are basically covers of the original, except with Plant/Page taking songwriting credits. There are plenty of other Zeppelin tunes that Page lifted from places, he consistently ripped parts of songs off from other artists. Anything that is a Zeppelin original is guaranteed to have poor songwriting and generally poor composition.
"Dazed and Confused" was by Jake Holmes, "Whole Lotta Love" was adapted from a Willie Dixon song called "You Need Love," ""How Many More Years" is adapted from Howlin' Wolf's -"How Many More Times," "Gallow's Pole" was nicked from Leadbelly's "Gallis Tree," "Black Mountainside" was adapted from Bert Janch's "Black Waterside," ""Bron- Y-Stomp" was adapted from a Bert Jansch/John Renbourn arrangement of "The Waggoner's Lad."
In some cases they almost word for word took lyrics. In others the songs are basically covers of the original, except with Plant/Page taking songwriting credits. There are plenty of other Zeppelin tunes that Page lifted from places, he consistently ripped parts of songs off from other artists. Anything that is a Zeppelin original is guaranteed to have poor songwriting and generally poor composition.
Crikey, Lucas. Where do I start?
1: The polished sound; this sound was always the sound that Nirvana were supposed to have. Cobain's main talent lied in the fact that he could write AWESOME pop punk songs and was a brilliant melodist. He didn't have any great artistic merits beyond that. These were his latent skills that were desperate to be awoken. The band as such was the perfect blueprint for a pop success, and thus the well-produced tight sound was always bound to be theirs. They were nothing as a sludge band. So what if there was lots of "sloppy feedback and distortion" or whatever - they didn't have the songs, and there was little to distinguish them from any of the other banRAB doing exactly the same thing. Nevermind is the album where they find their own sound and become something worth mentioning.
2: User friendly; of course it's user friendly, it's a pop album. It's aims are totally different to that of Bleach. Bleach was neither user friendly nor worth an awful lot to anybody else. At least in being user friendly they were actually something worth mentioning - something we'd actually be discussing 17 years on (for sure as hell we wouldn't be discussing Bleach Nirvana). Now, I do understand that what you mean is that at gigs they still had a more sludgy, messy sound. But then, I don't think studio recordings and gigs ought to sound the same anyway. Studios give the opportunity to do something different with your sound, and the fact is that everything on Nevermind sounRAB sharp, refined and good.
3: I don't agree that there is a lot of filler on this album. There are maximally two possible filler tracks: "Stay Away", and "Territorial Pissings", both of which succeed at being listenable and unnecessary to skip. Lounge Act is an excellent song. Go listen to it!
In sum, I do personally prefer In Utero over Nevermind but I'm amazed that people will still try to say that a nothing album of junk like Bleach could be a better studio recording than this, in all its songwriting excellence.
1: The polished sound; this sound was always the sound that Nirvana were supposed to have. Cobain's main talent lied in the fact that he could write AWESOME pop punk songs and was a brilliant melodist. He didn't have any great artistic merits beyond that. These were his latent skills that were desperate to be awoken. The band as such was the perfect blueprint for a pop success, and thus the well-produced tight sound was always bound to be theirs. They were nothing as a sludge band. So what if there was lots of "sloppy feedback and distortion" or whatever - they didn't have the songs, and there was little to distinguish them from any of the other banRAB doing exactly the same thing. Nevermind is the album where they find their own sound and become something worth mentioning.
2: User friendly; of course it's user friendly, it's a pop album. It's aims are totally different to that of Bleach. Bleach was neither user friendly nor worth an awful lot to anybody else. At least in being user friendly they were actually something worth mentioning - something we'd actually be discussing 17 years on (for sure as hell we wouldn't be discussing Bleach Nirvana). Now, I do understand that what you mean is that at gigs they still had a more sludgy, messy sound. But then, I don't think studio recordings and gigs ought to sound the same anyway. Studios give the opportunity to do something different with your sound, and the fact is that everything on Nevermind sounRAB sharp, refined and good.
3: I don't agree that there is a lot of filler on this album. There are maximally two possible filler tracks: "Stay Away", and "Territorial Pissings", both of which succeed at being listenable and unnecessary to skip. Lounge Act is an excellent song. Go listen to it!
In sum, I do personally prefer In Utero over Nevermind but I'm amazed that people will still try to say that a nothing album of junk like Bleach could be a better studio recording than this, in all its songwriting excellence.
rockstarbeau7
New member
Well Kurt said he wanted Nevermind to sound like "Bay City Rollers getting molested by Black Flag". so yeh i guess
rainy days are back
New member
I was waiting for you to show up 
1. An interesting point but it's one that, i at least, can't really argue against. I don't know what Kurt wanted Nirvana to be. Obviously the production of Nevermind would never have happened if he didn't approve to some degree but then they went back to a more messy approach of production with In Utero. One thing i do know though is that Bleach definitely had the songs. About a Girl, Love Buzz, Mr Moustache, Swap Meet, all bloody catchy, the production doesn't hinder this at all.
2. I love my pop, but i also love albums that challenge me as well. Bleach is somewhere inbetween (i realise challenging isn't the perfect word here but you get what i mean). I don't care about aims, that's what i like so obviously i'm going to be more attracted to Bleach ('cos it has great songs as well remeraber).
3. Oooo you're winding me up telling me to listen to songs i've been listening to for years! Lounge Act has no bang, it's them on auto. At least Territorial Pissings was fun. I'm sure it sounRAB great live but on record naaa.
I still like Nevermind, i just thought it would be more fun to do a case against. It's not as brilliant as everyone thinks, for me at least there are too many little problems.
1. An interesting point but it's one that, i at least, can't really argue against. I don't know what Kurt wanted Nirvana to be. Obviously the production of Nevermind would never have happened if he didn't approve to some degree but then they went back to a more messy approach of production with In Utero. One thing i do know though is that Bleach definitely had the songs. About a Girl, Love Buzz, Mr Moustache, Swap Meet, all bloody catchy, the production doesn't hinder this at all.
2. I love my pop, but i also love albums that challenge me as well. Bleach is somewhere inbetween (i realise challenging isn't the perfect word here but you get what i mean). I don't care about aims, that's what i like so obviously i'm going to be more attracted to Bleach ('cos it has great songs as well remeraber).
3. Oooo you're winding me up telling me to listen to songs i've been listening to for years! Lounge Act has no bang, it's them on auto. At least Territorial Pissings was fun. I'm sure it sounRAB great live but on record naaa.
I still like Nevermind, i just thought it would be more fun to do a case against. It's not as brilliant as everyone thinks, for me at least there are too many little problems.
Simple Words
New member
Case for:
Weither it be positive or negative theres hardly anything that hasn't been said about this album already, but I'll give it a shot.
Sgt Pepper is wrongly identified as a psychedelic album, and even if it is it dosen't sound like one. The idea behind it was that after giving up touring The Beatles were tired of being The Beatles and Paul came up with the concept of a fictional band and the new album would be based on that. Revolver had some pretty innovative sounRAB and it was a masterpiece of production, but this album really deserves to be looked upon as the groups magnum opus. It's really the first album that truly showcases the talents of every meraber, it's my favorite Beatles album and I love every song on it (except the pointless Sgt Peppers revival), this album overall is the sound of the band evolving in every way.
People who call this a ripoff of the American psychedelic scene are looking desperately for an excuse. This album took inspiration (which according to Rainard a band is never supposed to do) from the movement sure, but it dosen't sound like it, you're not gonna listen to it and confuse it with Jefferson Airplane, hell Pink Floyd took a lot more from the American psychedelic rock scene and yet they're supposed to be more original? Give me a break. The Beatles took inspiration from psychedelia like they did from many other genres that find their way into Sgt Peppers, they made something new out of it and and something that was not common in rock music at the time, making an album that went directly from a 5 minute Raga song with lyrics about Hinduism to a tribute to Music Hall, I wouldn't really call that playing it safe for a rock band back in 1967. This was mostly Paul's project, that certainly plays a part in peoples dislike for this album. I know this album is an easy target for the so called hipsters primarly because it contrasts with some purist ideals of what rock music should be, in other worRAB it should never be mature, it should always be stupid. I hate people with this attidude, the idea that music NEERAB to be one thing is just foolish.
While I don't think this album should be pigeonholed into psychedelic rock, it is true that this album in a lot of ways defined the sentiments of the love generation, everyone hates hippies now so I guess thats why people feel this album is outdated.
Only it's not outdated, it was insanely ahead of it's time. Without Sgt Peppers I find it hard to imagine there would be as many artists setting trenRAB and breaking genre barriers in the way The Beatles did with this album. This album I think was an essential influence on progressive rock. Yes, King Crimson and Genesis all started in the late 60s and it's actually pretty clear that they were trying to expand on the ideas The Beatles had for Sgt Pepper. And yeah, I think thats largely the reason people hate this album, it's very pomp, and it contains a lot of elements that would latter define the genre of prog that many people love to hate. All I have to say to that is love it or leave it.
Hating the album is one thing. But then people get really ridiculous and try to downplay it's impact, and some wish it was never made and that The Beatles should have never matured and gone beyond writing puppy love songs, but these people are wrong and can go screw themselves.
Weither it be positive or negative theres hardly anything that hasn't been said about this album already, but I'll give it a shot.
Sgt Pepper is wrongly identified as a psychedelic album, and even if it is it dosen't sound like one. The idea behind it was that after giving up touring The Beatles were tired of being The Beatles and Paul came up with the concept of a fictional band and the new album would be based on that. Revolver had some pretty innovative sounRAB and it was a masterpiece of production, but this album really deserves to be looked upon as the groups magnum opus. It's really the first album that truly showcases the talents of every meraber, it's my favorite Beatles album and I love every song on it (except the pointless Sgt Peppers revival), this album overall is the sound of the band evolving in every way.
People who call this a ripoff of the American psychedelic scene are looking desperately for an excuse. This album took inspiration (which according to Rainard a band is never supposed to do) from the movement sure, but it dosen't sound like it, you're not gonna listen to it and confuse it with Jefferson Airplane, hell Pink Floyd took a lot more from the American psychedelic rock scene and yet they're supposed to be more original? Give me a break. The Beatles took inspiration from psychedelia like they did from many other genres that find their way into Sgt Peppers, they made something new out of it and and something that was not common in rock music at the time, making an album that went directly from a 5 minute Raga song with lyrics about Hinduism to a tribute to Music Hall, I wouldn't really call that playing it safe for a rock band back in 1967. This was mostly Paul's project, that certainly plays a part in peoples dislike for this album. I know this album is an easy target for the so called hipsters primarly because it contrasts with some purist ideals of what rock music should be, in other worRAB it should never be mature, it should always be stupid. I hate people with this attidude, the idea that music NEERAB to be one thing is just foolish.
While I don't think this album should be pigeonholed into psychedelic rock, it is true that this album in a lot of ways defined the sentiments of the love generation, everyone hates hippies now so I guess thats why people feel this album is outdated.
Only it's not outdated, it was insanely ahead of it's time. Without Sgt Peppers I find it hard to imagine there would be as many artists setting trenRAB and breaking genre barriers in the way The Beatles did with this album. This album I think was an essential influence on progressive rock. Yes, King Crimson and Genesis all started in the late 60s and it's actually pretty clear that they were trying to expand on the ideas The Beatles had for Sgt Pepper. And yeah, I think thats largely the reason people hate this album, it's very pomp, and it contains a lot of elements that would latter define the genre of prog that many people love to hate. All I have to say to that is love it or leave it.
Hating the album is one thing. But then people get really ridiculous and try to downplay it's impact, and some wish it was never made and that The Beatles should have never matured and gone beyond writing puppy love songs, but these people are wrong and can go screw themselves.
whitefeathersnpr
New member
I know My War was one of his fave albums.
Sweet: Get Songs About ****ing. The first 5 songs (one a Kraftwerk cover) are perfect. And loud.
Sweet: Get Songs About ****ing. The first 5 songs (one a Kraftwerk cover) are perfect. And loud.
Salamander Way
New member
Spot on sir!
ethanlevine180
New member
Instead you get crap like this.
Sometimes you just have to accept failure.
How many goddamn ****ing times do I have to tell you? Not only that Zeppelin only stole lyrics not riRAB but even so you're compelled to mention it all the goddamn time when describing any of their music, what riRAB were stolen on this album? None, you didn't even give an example and thats because you can't, yeah you'll pull the whole Taurus thing out of your ass and with complete disregard for how horrible an example it is. Its completely irrelevant for you even to bring this **** up, you can't just express you're dislike for the album, you just GOTTA TROLL, and you're obviously trolling because i've already told you god knows how many damn times how it annoys me and that I'd wish you would stop.
Phew, anyway Jack. You can't change someones perceptions of the music they listen to, most peoples tastes are written in stone, if you think you're rantings about an album is gonna have any impact on other peoples perceptions about it, you're in lalaland.
I'd be no good at this. But
The case against:
I'm not gonna bother reviewing this song for song (they're barely distinguishable anyway) because that means I would have to revisit this album since I deleted it from my computer, to hell with that, this was incredibly boring, like mad insane boring. I've heard 5 minute Yngwie Malmsteen acoustic guitar solos that are less boring than this. I've never been one to value music because of its lyrics, thats the only thing that explains the appeal of this boring lad who both sings and plays guitar like he's on a sedative.
Sometimes you just have to accept failure.
How many goddamn ****ing times do I have to tell you? Not only that Zeppelin only stole lyrics not riRAB but even so you're compelled to mention it all the goddamn time when describing any of their music, what riRAB were stolen on this album? None, you didn't even give an example and thats because you can't, yeah you'll pull the whole Taurus thing out of your ass and with complete disregard for how horrible an example it is. Its completely irrelevant for you even to bring this **** up, you can't just express you're dislike for the album, you just GOTTA TROLL, and you're obviously trolling because i've already told you god knows how many damn times how it annoys me and that I'd wish you would stop.
Phew, anyway Jack. You can't change someones perceptions of the music they listen to, most peoples tastes are written in stone, if you think you're rantings about an album is gonna have any impact on other peoples perceptions about it, you're in lalaland.
I'd be no good at this. But
The case against:
I'm not gonna bother reviewing this song for song (they're barely distinguishable anyway) because that means I would have to revisit this album since I deleted it from my computer, to hell with that, this was incredibly boring, like mad insane boring. I've heard 5 minute Yngwie Malmsteen acoustic guitar solos that are less boring than this. I've never been one to value music because of its lyrics, thats the only thing that explains the appeal of this boring lad who both sings and plays guitar like he's on a sedative.
Bill E Bee
New member
I have'nt been on for a couple of nights to moderate this. You are spot on JJJ. The idea was to discuss an ALBUM WITH case's for and against. I thought this would make good discussion not a bunch of posts discussing the band and NOT the album. I do not dislike Zeppelin, I am just not a huge fan. I was hoping people would follow my lead and look at the album objectively and the album ONLY. The thread will be moderated more closely know.
The thread begins anew with the aforementioned ASTRAL WEEKS.
Who's first with a view?
The thread begins anew with the aforementioned ASTRAL WEEKS.
Who's first with a view?
Good grief. What IS wrong with these people? As you say, it's a freakin' VARIATION of a guitar lick! EVERYBODY in the 60s bloody well played variations of some guitar lick that was itself invented by a Blues artist like Bobby Parker etc. Most riRAB in popular music are variations of some way earlier idea. That's not called ripping off or plagiarism. That's about as idiotic as claiming that it's a rip-off to re-use a drum beat. What a bunch of tarRAB.
Case Against:
This is considered Van Morrison's first 'classic' album and it's easy to see why. His songwriting, while not as top notch as on Moondance, Tuplo Honey or Veedon Fleece, is still excellent. Not to mention the title track is one of, if not the, best song he's ever written. Unfortunately nothing else on the album quite reaches the heights of 'Astral Weeks' and ultimately there's a point where even the best of ideas can get old. Especially one so reliant one aspect of the music, Mr. Morrison's aforementioned angelic vocals. His voice doesn't have quite the richness or depth of later albums, and he's obviously not as experienced vocally, because there's made little use of his vocal agility and dynamicness. Also the lyrics often seem a bit clumsy, even contrived. This is still a good album, but it lacks the relative musical diversity of Moondance and just plain gets old quickly.
This is considered Van Morrison's first 'classic' album and it's easy to see why. His songwriting, while not as top notch as on Moondance, Tuplo Honey or Veedon Fleece, is still excellent. Not to mention the title track is one of, if not the, best song he's ever written. Unfortunately nothing else on the album quite reaches the heights of 'Astral Weeks' and ultimately there's a point where even the best of ideas can get old. Especially one so reliant one aspect of the music, Mr. Morrison's aforementioned angelic vocals. His voice doesn't have quite the richness or depth of later albums, and he's obviously not as experienced vocally, because there's made little use of his vocal agility and dynamicness. Also the lyrics often seem a bit clumsy, even contrived. This is still a good album, but it lacks the relative musical diversity of Moondance and just plain gets old quickly.
Brainless Harry Reid
New member
Yes, certainly I agree that that is plagiarism. As for adapting/creating a variation of a well-known guitar lick, that's no more plagiarism than using a drurabeat or a fill.
♥ SiNeAd ♥
New member
It sounRAB like a trend to say that nevermind is their worst album considering it became so sucessful.....but
imo lounge act is the best song on the album. and stay away is great to how could you not like a song where someone is screaming 'god is ***'? but undoubtly nevermind is their most accesible album, why do think it became so big? my favorite overview of nevermind
imo lounge act is the best song on the album. and stay away is great to how could you not like a song where someone is screaming 'god is ***'? but undoubtly nevermind is their most accesible album, why do think it became so big? my favorite overview of nevermind