The Case For/ The Case Against..

L

Lance P

New member
Case Against:


I have to agree with reviewers who say that London Calling is a sampling of styles the Clash were good at...and styles they weren't so hot at. The Card Cheat, Brand New Cadillac, Clampdown, Guns Of Brixton, and a few others are quite good. What holRAB me back from liking the album are the performances and the production. The tracks don't seem to have the right punch. The title track is, to me, the most frustrating. All of the elements are there; the anthemic, doom-filled structure, the zooming bass line, the killer riff...but the record doesn't deliver. It sounRAB overdone, with none of the energy it should have had. Throughout the album, the tracks plod, treading a middle ground between firery rock and laid-back "white reggae." For some people that's an asset; for me, it sinks the album.
 
I don't know why you'd suggest him Five Leaves Left when he disliked the acoustic stuff since Bryter Layter is almost completely full band and way better.
 
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Case for:

This album marks the point in The Clash's career when they made the transition from punk rock to a more Raggae/Ska based sound. While, I, myself am not a fan of The Clash's decision to experiment witho ther genres, and wish they would have done more punk rock in their later career, actually enjoyed this album very much. When they did a genre on this album, they did it damn well.

The album starts with London Calling, a friggin' epic song. The lyrics are well written and apocalyptic. I love the beat, and I dig the bass. It's pretty much a corabination of everything The Clash ever did. It's a punk song, with a raggae bass line, and an almost swingy beat. Probably my favorite track on the album.

The next song is a cover of Vince Taylor's Brand New Cadillac. I must admit, I haven't heard the original, but I don't care. I love this song. It's fifties rock 'n' roll mixed with The Clash's punk rock sound. I especially love the part when the song picks up and gets angrier (as in gets faster, thicker, and the vocals get more passionate). Love it.

Rudie Can't Fail is one of the best examples of The Clash experimenting with genres and doing it well. It's a catchy ska song that makes excellent use of a horn section.

Clampdown is reminiscent of The Clash's older work, but brings a more hard rock feel to punk rock. Like Brand New Cadillac, it has a part that picks up and it gets angrier. They did an amazing job on it. The song is catchy as hell.

Other notable songs include the raggae influenced (and the latter is all out raggae) Koka Kola and The Guns Of Brixton, Wrong Em' Boyo (an amazing track), and the rock songs I'm Not Down (love the bass line) and Death Or Glory.

Train In Vain, however is considered to be among The Clash's best songs. That one doesn't do it for me. It's boring, and extremely repetative



Overall it's an awesome album. A very good showcase of The Clash's sound. Their later experimentation with different genres was nowhere near as good as it is on this album. This is one of the definitive rock albums.

Edit: Sorry, I was writing this when you posted all that. Apologies.
 
This thread follows a regular format in Empire movie magazine which put's a classic film on trial with pro and anti reviews vying for supremacy. I thought it would be an idea to clone it and apply it to classic albums. The idea is for either a pro or anti post on a particular album that is well written and informative. You can only have one view on an album whether good or bad. Although it may seem like an excuse to pour scorn on disliked albums, I am trying to get posts that may change peoples perceptions of classic albums for better or worse.

I will begin with Led Zeppelin: 4.
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Case against:


An album that regulary tops many U.K magazines Best Rock Album's Ever and a massive success internationally, there is no denying the albums reverence. Why?

Let's delve deeper. Album opener Black Dog whacks Robert Plant's white man blues wail upon us, followed by an electric groove blues riff. Quite a good riff. One minute later it is already grating and repetitive. The band have hammered the hell out of a fairly unoriginal riff and gave 15 year old headbangers a sore bonce the next day.

Rock N Roll follows. Yes thats what it is. The drurabeat that all aspiring rock drummers should begin with because it's quintessential. You mean easy? A song that meanders along and could and was replicated by many banRAB before.

The Battle Of Evermore. I get stuck here. This is a well crafted Acoustic Folk track. Nevertheless it's taken until track 3 to get a good reaction.

Stairway to Heaven. Bring it on. Let's feel the wrath. There are some fantastic aspects on this track. John Bonhams drum fills towarRAB the end are superlative and the track is perfectly written and composed. It also begun the era of the power ballad. The slow acoustic intro. The slow build to a crescendo that feels forced and not emotional. The first couple of minutes with the flute sounRAB like a bad version of Fairport Convention or any multitude of Folk rock banRAB that were in proliferation at this time. This track is certainly not terrible yet it is an AOR reps dream and set a template for many emotional rock ballaRAB that borabarded the scene after this.

Misty Mountain Hop. Nice drums coupled with a ridiculous vocal/guitar sync that sounRAB like a nursery ryhme make for a track that could have been great yet is spectaculary ordinary.

Four Sticks has some nice blues time signatures and is the nearest the band get to jamming and letting the music flow. However it seems out of place with the polished nature of the rest of the album.

Going To California is an acoustic ballad that has some nice touches yet it never engrosses me. It seems emotionally detached and a filler to break up the second side of the album.

When The Levee Breaks. The opening crime from this track is that Bonhams drum pattern was fed into a million drum machines and spewed forth to make some truly hideous tracks. Yes Bonhams perfect drum sound was a template for the first slew of drum machines. Again the lazy Blues riff is enjoyable yet is played ad nauseam, thus rendering it no better than the multitude of Blues-Rock banRAB that were two a penny in england in the late 60's/early 70's.

In summation. I do not hate this album at all and I can hear so many good moments on here. Unfortunately i can also hear so much unoriginal, lazy and banal songs that it makes me justify my own view that it is an overated album and not deserving of the many No1 spots it so regulary garners.
 
Right, we clearly have different interpretations of the music. And again, I didn't say all of the songs were complete rip oRAB, I pointed that out rather clearly in my post. And there was no copying and pasting from anywhere, although I have done my research over the years to support my arguments. However, if you want more examples I found these here (didn't even know about some of them):

Led Zeppelin

# "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" - A folk song by Anne Bredon, this was originally credited as "traditional, arranged by Jimmy Page," then "worRAB and music by Jimmy Page," and then, following legal action, "Bredon/Page/Plant."
# "Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).
# "Communication Breakdown" - apparently derived from Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown."
# "Custard Pie" - uncredited cover of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down," with lyrics from Sleepy John Estes's "Drop Down Daddy."
# "Hats Off To (Roy) Harper" - uncredited version of Bukka White's "Shake 'Em On Down."
# "How Many More Times" - Part one is an uncredited cover of the Howlin' Wolf song (available on numerous compilations). Part two is an uncredited cover of Albert King's "The Hunter."
# "In My Time Of Dying" - uncredited cover of the traditional song (as heard on Bob Dylan's debut).
# "The Lemon Song" - uncredited cover of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor" - Wolf's publisher sued Zeppelin in the early 70s and settled out of court.
# "Moby ****" - written and first recorded by Sleepy John Estes under the title "The Girl I Love," and later covered by Bobby Parker.
# "Nobody's Fault But Mine" - uncredited cover of the Blind Willie Johnson blues.
# "Since I've Been Lovin' You" - lyrics are the same as Moby Grape's "Never," though the music isn't similar.
# "White Summer" - uncredited cover of Davey Graham's "She Moved Through The Fair."

And I don't have the time or the desire to go and hunt down other examples.

I am very familiar with the 8 and 12 bar blues and the blues scale. I love the blues, it's one of my favorite genres of music. Anything from Son House to Mississippi John Hurt to Reverend Gary Davis, etc. I love and enjoy listening to.

You can't complain about not being able to see examples and then get upset when some are posted. Let's keep the discussion civil, no need for animosity or name calling.
 
I am with you Strummer, I will also defend Zep4 although jacks review is very fair, it comes down to his opinion to invalidate it

Led Zeppelin IV: "The Case Against" counterpoint

I won't even try to argue it as the best all-time, but it's a classic and deservedly so.

From end to end it's pure, passionate rock that spoke to it's audience like no mo music ever has before or since.

It was recorded right as the band reached the height of its popularity, when they were without question the biggest band in the world and features multiple of rock and roll standarRAB excepted and endorsed by todays experts and musicians.

Stairway to Heaven is so good that despite the inevitable visceral disgust you feel when you hear it for the 20 millionth time, upon objective evaluation is a fantastic song that has earned it's respect.

When the Levee Breaks is one of Bonham's greatest performance's; forget what it "inspired" the Beatles, Stones etc inspired some of the worst music ever, that's not on them.

The dramatic opening is so good it makes you laugh the first few times you hear it.

You can identify 6 of the 8 songs within the first 6 notes.

So Good It has no official name. Man with Sticks c'mon, brilliant.

Led Zeppelin is of course a favorite of mine and though not my favorite artist ever, in my opinion the best ever. I am not objective in my fandum but I feel like there are far more non-emotional points to be made for then against.
 
In Utero is just as accessible if you ask me, it just misses most of their big singles which is why people like it more.
1. on that list is way off though. Of course you wouldn't have seen it if you stick to the charts, but with banRAB like Sonic Youth, Big Black and Mudhoney about before i would have imagined at some point that a band would take that heavy style and corabine it with accessible pop songs.
 
uhhhh i'm really tired of having to explain this to you guys my itunes doesn't let me import music unless it's from a cd, idk why. It just wont.
 
Man. This is fun. That link is complete garbage.



Again, I already addressed the fact that Zeppelin covered songs but didn't credit the writers, as lowdown as that was, fair is fair. This IS a cover, not a ripoff. Even so, it sounRAB VERY different from both Bredons version and the Joan Baez version. The riff is not the same, and Plants vocal style is quite a different take on it.



Yeah the intro and outro are uncredited covers. Everything inbetween is entirely original, and thats the part of the song thats freaking awesome.




Now this is just a bullcrap shot in the dark comparison based on a very generic use of simple chorRAB. I don't hear the similarites at all myself. This is one of the best examples of Zep haters getting desperate.

So yeah, thats how people come to the conclusion that Communication Breakdown is a stolen song, based entirely on two riRAB that don't even sound alike, and what else was "stolen" you might ask? Nothing. Entirely original song. Just happens to have a similar title and thats probably where people came to the conclusion that the song is influenced by it somehow. Curse you Led Zeppelin, stealing the word "breakdown", how dare you?



Once again, only the lyrics.



Its actually a medley of different blues songs.

Never mind that its one of the worst songs Zep ever did.



Nay. Its not really a cover, just inspired by it. The riff and beat sure ass hell aren't the same. And thats what drives the song. And all they stole from The Hunter were lyrics. Hmm... I see a pattern here.



Its a traditional song as in the writer is unknown, who in the hell are they gonna credit?

I guess they mean they should have called it "traditional", and that they should, yet another example of an uncredited cover, not a ripoff.

And I think I've already explained that Zeppelins covers are almost always radically different from the original songs. They make everything their own.



Nope. Not a cover. They took the lyrics (lol) and yes the riff that comes in at 1:28 is clearly a homage to the song. And thats what it is, a homage. BanRAB can't pay homages? Then All You Need is Love is a ripoff of She Loves You, by that logic.



:rofl:

Whoever wrote this is just making crap up now. Its NOT a cover. The riff does sound pretty similar to Watch Your Step by Bobby Parker which is NOT a cover of The Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair by Sleepy John Estes. Moby D*ck is not related to that song at all, Page simply used the riff before in a song from the BBC sessions called The Girl I love, I don't think its even a Sleepy John cover, durabasses couldn't even get their facts straight. The riff to I Feel Fine by The Beatles also sounRAB very damn similar to it, just as much as the Moby D*ck riff does.

Maybe Page did steal this riff, unfortunately so did John Lennon. Small world eh?



Wrong, just the lyrics, AGAIN, just the lyrics.



Lyrics you say?



They guys apparrently cant tell the difference between influence and covers. Its not a cover.



Look I'm not insulting you here, a little angry sure. But you're saying stuff without checking your facts, and you're citing sources that are biased and incredibly inaccurate, that site got a lot of things wrong. Sorry but I call bull**** when you pick an argument with me and can't back up your claims with any real facts.
 
Similarities is not ripping off. I already discussed they're taking of lyrics, this discussion began with the whole Page stealing riRAB thing, and ALL you've managed to give me is one similar riff (and something John Lennon is also guilty of) and 2 uncredited adaptations of traditional folk songs with no credited writer to begin with. :laughing:

Biased? You bet. But at least I check my sh*t, I make sure the facts are on my side.
 
Case For....

Every criticism of this album I have seen always has the same boring criticisms. Sell Outs , White boy reggae bandwagon jumpers , too long , not punk , too many different styles they're not good at... and so on and so on.
First of all why would anyone want to record a punk album in 1979 anyway? The banRAB in the UK punk scene by this time had long since either moved on or become stale anyway. I mean what motivation would there have been for The Clash to write a punk album in 1979 anyway? to make an album that's slightly better than Sham 69 or a bunch of crappy OI banRAB? I don't think so.

They were right to move on and they went back to the music they grew up with to do it. Paul Simonen learned how to play bass playing reggae , he always said he felt more comfortable playing it than rock music , he grew up listening to it. Jones grew up listening to glam/art rock like Bowie , T-Rex , Roxy Music , Alice Cooper , New York Dolls. Those influences are all in there. Strummer grew up listening to reggae , rockabilly . protest singers and lots of roots music. Basically all these influences are in this album somewhere so to suggest they were just trying anything doesn't wash with me.

The album itself for me is the most complete double album ever released. I can't think of another double album that has such a good hit/miss ratio in it's favour . It's only the end of side 4 where things begin to slow down. On sides 1 to 3 there isn't a single filler track. The lesser known songs on the album are where it gets it's character from. Stuff like Jimmy Jazz , The Card Cheat , The Right Profile , Koka Kola and Wrong 'Em Boyo are much more entertaining songs than some anonymous angry 3 chord punk thrashabout which is where side 2 of Give Em Enough Rope really suffers.

The Clash were considered one of the best live banRAB ever and it says something that after this album was released the band hardly ever played anything off the first 2 albums again save for 3 or 4 songs. At least 70% of the songs on this album were played live on a regular basis and you don't get a reputation for being a great live band playing crap songs.

I would say some of the above criticisms would apply to Sandinista where they DID seem to throw everything but the kitchen sink in and it did seem like they were trying to hard. But there is no way that applies to London Calling.
 
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Astral Weeks-Van Morrison, Case Against

This is by no means a bad record, and the title track is just gorgeous, but overall the album lacks any diversity and doesn't have quite the songwriting strength of Veedon Fleece or Moondance. Any album that is consistently ranked among the best of all time neeRAB something to make it stand out from the crowd, and this just doesn't have that.
 
Oh, there's no doubt that Jimmy Page wrote some good riRAB. The riff to "Heartbreaker" is awesome. I'm not trying to discredit Page's ability to write a catchy riff. "Hey Hey What Can I Do" is another good example. I actually like "Hey Hey What Can I Do," Plant's vocals are tolerable, and the lyrics aren't stupid. Don't know why that song isn't as well known as their other stuff, I would consider it one of the best B-Sides ever.

Oh, and Bonham was an incredible drummer. I don't normally care about drummers, but he was fantastic. He had a truly unique style that is instantly recognizable. His drumming on the "Stairway to Heaven" nearly overshadows the solo for me.
 
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