Subs, Dubs and Originalism

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karlyy7x

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Mod Note: This is a discussion spin-off from the thread about Section23's recent licenses & solicitations. Please keep talk on this subject here from this point forward. Remeraber civility, and this conversation might have some mileage.

-GWO

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I took a few days off from this thread to continue being emotionally detatched from the subject on-hand.



But none of that changes the facts of the situation. My opinion aside, those are the facts and they conflict with my belief--as a dude who comes to a message board about animation--of respecting the source material. FUNimation's Dragon Ball treatment is something I brought up merely as an example to make my point.


I really don't have a solid opinion on the 'dub v. sub' discussion. Factually speaking, the original is the original and no dub can replace its importance. That would, if nobody will blow up over my saying so, factually impossible. It doesn't matter how good a dub is, it is not the original and it is not the global representation of the series.

Not that I am suggesting I believe that--factually speaking--all dubs are terrible.
 
I honestly have no idea if that is directed towarRAB me or how it relates to the subject at hand.


Not that the subject at hand hasn't already gotten pretty far off from the actual news of the thread...
 
You're response still makes no sense. If you're speaking of the anime, the anime is the anime. It's an official adaptation of a series of novels by the Japanese licensor. I have no idea how good the anime is an adaptation of the original novels.
 
My response makes no sense, lol

The anime Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust was dubbed into Japanese second. So the dub in Japanese must be terrible since all dubs are terrible.
 
You misread his post. He never said that all dubs are terrible (and even pointed out that he does NOT believe that all dubs are terrible). He just stated that he believes that no dub can ever replace the original, which is a fair enough statement, IMO, although I still wouldn't consider it a solid fact, myself, personally.
 
So overall, this thread is a subs vs dubs thing and where we stand, right?

Well I'm a dub person for the most part, but I don't turn a blind eye to subs anymore either. However, when it comes to dubs trying to match subs I'm actually against it since most of the times V/A's are trying to match the original and sometimes they really don't fit. I prefer them to just try and do a tone that matches the characters personality, but that's probably just me.
 
....Let me say something about this.

Personally, when ppl say original,that doesn't mean its good. It means: Its the first, its the main source, new. Now, were does it show "Good"? Where, where?
I just want to say, original doesn't mean good. I really don't know where ppl are getting the idea of that.
Now, if you like the JP dubs, fine by me. Not hating on that. But acting like there's no holes, no mistakes or anything bad from it, I can't take. Everything has holes, everything has mistakes, EVERYTHING. Even from the original. I just can't stand when some ppl act there's nothing wrong from the original dub. In other worRAB, JP dubs. Now, I'm not going to say all JP dubs are bad. No. Why? Because I can't understand it. Even with the Subs, how do I know those are the right worRAB?
I really don't care if you enjoy the JP dubs. Go ahead, love it. But don't act like there's nothing wrong with it. The actors/Actress are ppl to you know, they make mistakes. They're no robots.

Now for dubs. Yeah, I'm a dub fan. Am I saying all dubs are great? No. Just like the original dub, its not perfect too.
Personally, I want all the anime I watch in dubs. I'm not a fan of subs. I used to be a fan, but not any more. But I get mad sometimes when I see an anime thats out in stores and it's Only sub version. Example: Lucky Star OVA. (Hey, don't look at me like that!)
I just don't see the point. Just make the dub and put it in the DVD. Thats all. You don't have to watch it. You can change it to sub. YOU GOT THE POWER TO DO THAT!
Maybe the ppl that got the DVD thought it will sell more. Maybe. Or maybe not. It just gets me angery they are looking at one source of fans. Show a little love.

I don't know if I'm playing the game right in this thread. I'm not hating, I'm just showing some ppl the bigger picture. Maybe you know, and maybe your actiing you don't know.
 
Subs do offer the option and opportunity to go to the source, so I think they're very valuable in that regard even if the Japanese voice acting is absolutely terrible. That said, I wouldn't agree that it's impossible for a dub to capture the essence of the original. It can be tricky since it requires (a) a good reading of intent and (b) excellent directing and/or acting, but it's by no means impossible. Indeed, there are cases where a dub is so excellent that it arguably transcenRAB the original. Bebop is commonly cited as one. I'd have to think hard about what others might qualify, though I certainly think more than a few are good enough that one can at least feel that nothing is lost in translation.

I've come to believe it's easy to be biased toward the Japanese for two valid reasons. The first is the obvious issue of early dubs not being that good, giving a significant amount of fans a bad first impression. Second is the issue that Japanese speech simply does not sound the same as English speech, so a side-by-side comparison can be quite faulty if one is expecting an English actor to emulate a Japanese one. This usually isn't realistic, nor is it usually even desirable--this can make for very stilted acting if the actors aren't being allowed to find their own voice for a character.

I do think it's not always possible to be truly faithful. In the case of humor that's distinctly Japanese, well, it's not always going to be very funny to us, and some of our humor very likely doesn't fly over there either. In a way this really has more to do with cultural differences than the competency of an adaptation, though.

I have said before that I do not require a dub for enjoyment. Yes, I prefer one, and from a consumer's point of view it's always ideal to get more bang for your buck. But ultimately, I'm coming for the story, the artistry, everything that is happening on the screen. I mean, I would be without Satoshi Kon's magnificent Millennium Actress if I were hardcore about avoiding sub-only, and that would be badly missing out. There are other situations too, like my enjoyment of Toward the Terra and Arcadia of My Youth as a serious fan of SF anime. If the anime is excellent, I want it in my collection. The sub-only issue is ultimately secondary from this perspective.
 
Sometimes I like the sub better, and sometimes I like the dub better. If it's something like a Crunchyroll simulcast so there's only a sub, I'm fine with that. If it's getting an American DVD release, I should have the option. Of course, there will be some people who come in here and say that anyone who thinks that there should be the option of a dub is the stupidest person on Earth, so I probably won't discuss this topic much as long as those people are still around. The point is that DVRAB should have made it so this never had to be argued again.
 
Just want to stress I never explicitly said such. Plenty of dubs remain faithful and respectfully stand as tributes to the original, but at the end of the day all they are in relation to the original is one licensor's tool for mainstream appeal.



This:
 
There are shows that sound better Dubbed then subbed, ecspecially shows that arn't in Japanses settings, I think shows like Cowboy Bebop, Black Lagoon & Claymore are alot better then in english, mainly because there not set in japanese settings & because sometimes, like in Black Lagoons case, the English Dub is actually better & fits the characters better then the origional Japanese....But then again since BL was somewhat based off of US action Films...I guess it only make sense.
 
If you want "originalism", get back to me when you learn Japanese. With subs you are still inherently at the mercy of the translator, who has his or her own quirks.

Subs are good for people who just like the SOUND of Japanese speaking better, but to say one is closer than the other, script wise, is presumptuous. There are multiple cases of the dub actually being closer meaning-wise than subs. That's how difficult it is to make the case for "authenticity."

And on the issue of Japanese performances being "closer" to the original vision--not always true! With anime these days being adapted from manga, who is to say that the Japanese actors don't deviate somewhat from the original source? Quite often they'll do a different take from what the author originally intended--that's the beauty of acting. And that's the key here--acting. You shouldn't expect dub actors to be mimics--they should be actors first and foremost.
 
Well said. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about anime in regarRAB the case of subs vs. dubs. Therefore, if the English dub of an anime is faithful enough to the original source material, and if the voice acting is at least decent, then it will be my preference to watch the anime that way over the sub, since I just personally get more enjoyment out of watching something in my own native language. That's just me, though.
 
Not to mention that sometimes that like anything else performed by people, there are times when Japanese acting is just lacking in terms of performance or acting quality. However if I am not mistaken, it's harder for us English-speaking people to actually catch onto that. Lord knows I can't really stand Kappei Yamaguchi's Usopp or Inu Yasha, never mind whoever did the main character of Mai-Otome, or how Hoshi Soichiro and Naomi Shindoh sounded like they were having horrific enemas whenever Kira or Cagalli cried. What about dubs like Voltron, Saber Rider, and Speed Racer? I don't really hear much from other parts of the globe about the majesty of Golion, Bismarck, or Mach Go Go Go.

That said, I'll watch subs and I'll watch dubs depending on the availability, and to a lesser extent preference. Thankfully most of the shows I watch have competent enough dubs that I watch them there. Exceptions being however Escaflowne and Cardcaptor Sakura.
 
I watch every anime I own dubbed and subbed. I like to try out both versions because there are some shows where the original voices suck. Bad acting is universal, it's not limited to foreign language versions.

That being said if the show is uncut and it is well acted I prefer the dub three fourths of the time.

Really to me I want dubs of anime and Bilingual DVRAB because I want choices. I don't want to be limited to the Japanese version of a show any more then i want to be limited to the dub.

As for translations it's funny I hate undertranslating more then over translating. One of my pet pieves in anime dubs is when they leave in honour fics, something that just feels unnatural in English.
 
Yeah.

Which is why, if you're going to go the extra mile for "true" purity, it's best to learn Japanese so you can pick up all the idiosycracies of that language and "get" the wordplay meant for a Japanese audience. With both subs and dubs, you can only get the INTERPRETED literal meaning of the original language. The only real difference between dubs and subs are the performances, and quality of performance is largely subjective.
 
The job of the translation team--as opposed to the adaption team for the dub--is a totally different thing. The translation of the text, while needing interpretation by the translator to bring it into English, isn't handled in a way that has to account for flaps.



Except that's a totally different discussion from the one being held. The anime is its own seperate entity from the work it might be adapted from. The point is accurately representing the dialogue spoken by the actors in the Japanese version.

Who is implying dub actors should mimic the original Japanese actors? I certainly am not.



I hesitate to even call those dubs. Dubbing is about replacing the voice track with one in a language the original was not, as I understand those 'older dubs' hardly if at all reserable the Japanese show they are adapted from leaving far more reason for them to be held as completely seperate things, sort of like Dragon Ball Kai really not being Dragon Ball Z even though it re-edits the footage from that series, except in the case of the aforementioned series'...they're done by licensors to create shows they think Americans will like...which is another barrel of monkeys all t'gether.
 
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