Spine is normal with degenerated discs and Schmorls node?

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i was trying to 'just" quote one paragraph where you mentioned the knowledge of any doc really IS the key to getting the best care for 'your' problem,and unfortunetly the whole post showed up,go figure. but having what you have going on at such an early age IS abnormal,and not the usual that docs see. so i don't have a freaking clue as to where your doc came up with that one,honesly,that was an ignorant remark on his part,or just plain stupid.

i think you are definitely right in seeking out another primary who just actually gives a rats butt about his or her patients. the one you have now sounRAB plain lazy to me. for one thing,your primarydoc is supposed to actually listen to their patients then co ordinate the patients care accordingly,this one obviously is not doing that for you and you DO need to be seeing either a really knowledgable neurosurgeon or ortho just to find out what all this actually means to you.

DDD at your age is just not the norm by any means. do you actually know what a shmorls node is? it is basically a herniated endplate withthat herniations going up or down into the disc and not outwarRAB like a normal herniation,these can casue pain and symptoms despite the waythey are within the vertebrae.these can just be there as in a congenital defect or casued by 'something" that could have happened long ago or just over time for no apparent reason.

you just really need,nuraber one,a good caring primary to help you get to the right places,and then a good knowledgable specialist who just has enough experience and knowledge of your types of issues to help you in the best way. i had to seek out three seperate opinions on my problem before i finally found the one and only who simply had the most overall years of experience in dealing with what my main issue was,a cavernous hemangioma that grew inside of my spinal cord(my particular "birthmark'). he was the only one who actually told me this sucker had also bled into my cord,twice. nice thing to withhold from a patient,by two other NSs who i assumed were knowledgable and could or would be able to tell me what this actually ment for me. nope. not enough overall knowledge and experience with those two.

just getting to the right people here will really help alot in getting your neeRAB met. it may take some time or phone calls,but it is worth it just to have that doc who you know cares about you,trust me on that one. i would ask your frienRAB about who they see as their primary and how satisfied they are with their overall care with that doc. getting a word of mouth referral from someone who you trust and know really is the best way to find the best docs. once you obtain a name,check your ins co to see if it covers that particular doc. this is how i have found a great hand specialist i needed years ago after an orhto who was stupid,screwed up blown ligaments in a finger. really messed me up til i got to the most wonderful knowledgable hand specialist. i would not have known about him had a friend of mine not used him for two surgeries. really wonderful knowledgable guy there.

you just do deserve to have a primary who simply does his job for you. there are many different ways to find that doc,you just have to start really looking and listensing to others. just tell any new primary you see that you NEED the help of a good doc who actually cares as the others you have seen don't seem to know how to do that one thing for you. i do wish you lots of luck with this. just keep going til you find that doc.they ARE out there,trust me. not all are like the idiot you currently have. please keep us posted. it may not hurt either to simply bring someone with you to appts. sometimes just having someone else there helps tons,both for you and as far as the doc just taking you more seriously too. marcia
 
Hi, Marcia. :)

The two spine specialists I saw both said there was nothing wrong with my back, even though that Schmorls node was mentioned and is on the MRI results report and images so they said that there is nothing they can do and that their work with me is done. I have to say, I didn't feel happy on their opinions on my spine as when I asked them if they'd seen any other people my age or younger, they both said yes but it is very unusual. They don't know how to treat me and that is what gets to me too as the MRI clearly does show the Schmorls node and they both never mentioned it and said it won't get worse. They just told me that the pain is for life and that I'll have to take painkillers on a regular basis! When they said that, I thought it doesn't really take a surgeon just to tell me that! I came to them to get a bit of help and they can't even read an MRI! How they ever qualified is beyond me!

Though what I found annoying was that this 'lazy' primary care doc said that he was doing the best he could for me and that his job was to co-ordinate my care! I think they say this even though their performance isn't what they say it is just to keep their patients as they get paid for keeping them I'd have thought. He was certainly below average in my satisfaction ratings.

The Schmorls node, from what you mention as a type of herniation, sounRAB like it could be fixed but I'm not sure as, after seeing one orthopaedic spine surgeon and Neurosurgeon specialising in spines, I still am none the wiser, just like before I even saw these two spine surgeons and still don't feel like I am any far forward in finding out how to treat what I have. I have noticed for a while that my back makes loud clicking/cracking noises too. Perhaps a complete disc replacement or that new procedure called DASCOR may be the route to go in treating this?

Your experience with those two neurosurgeons and the orthopaedic surgeon sounRAB awful. It makes me wonder how these people actually pass all their medical/surgical training when they easily miss something out and just pass you on.

I have asked around but I haven't found many people to ask as I only know a few and they are healthy as regarRAB their spines so they can't give me their opinions on suitable spine surgeons. I have also tried posting in threaRAB on forums but without much luck so I'm at a dead end and am not sure on what to do now. The only other thing is to ask people I don't know if they know any decent spine surgeons and primary care docs as they might have had a friend or person they know get a good service from a surgeon and/or primary care doc.

I will keep looking for the right doctor and spine surgeon. Like you said, it'll just take a bit of time to find the right one but it'll be worth it in the end.

I bring my mom in with me when I see my primary care doc and other specialists as two heaRAB are better than one in sinking the information in and also is good to have a witness. Though she does tend to believe they are right in what they say which does concern me as I totally disagree with the way in which she automatically agrees with whatever they say even if it's not right just because they are doctors/surgeons and tells me that I have to believe in what they say as they are doctors/surgeons and they wouldn't be qualified if they weren't good but I don't and have told her this but she tells me I have to believe one of them! I don't believe either of them though! I feel like other separate opinions are necessary as I don't believe I have to live on painkillers continually for the rest of my life and that there's nothing at all they can do to help me. What they said just sounRAB, again, like laziness and an excuse to be lazy and get their money easily.

I've the merabers on this board to be so much more helpful than any doctor or surgeon I've gone to. I've found this board and its merabers very good at lending a listening ear when other people have needed help, including me, and also found their advice to be very helpful too. :)

Thanks for your help and advice, Marcia, and I'll let you know how I get on. :)

Kind regarRAB

Niad
 
Hi, everyone. :)

My MRI of my lower spine shows degenerated discs at L2/L3 level with a Schmorls node.

I am 20 years old and have suffered this back pain and leg pain/sensations for three years now. I first started having it after I got really ill with some sort of virus at 17. Since then I've never recovered from the bad back and leg problems.

I'm not sure completely why I have it and every doctor I've been to see, including spine specialists don't think there is anything wrong - they say that basically having degenerated discs is normal for a young person!

I would be grateful if you could share any of your experiences if any of you have also been told this as I don't understand why they are dismissing my symptoms and the degenerated discs with the Schmorls node.

My MRI results report clearly states that it is unusual for a person of this young age to have degenerated discs and a Schmorls node.

Thanks in advance for any help or advice you may be able to give.
 
Hi, Marcia and Hansen36.

Hope you both have a happy New Year.

Not much to report on at the moment. It's going pretty slow.

Irang the MRI suite up and it's just a plain MRI that the NS has ordered, not contrast.

I'm now trying to find another NS for another opinion as I am not happy with the current opinion of his.

Why didn't he do a discogram? Is there any reasons as to why a NS wouldn't do a discogram?

Kind regarRAB

Niad
 
Anybody have any opinions on this?

Please let me know as I don't know what to do next.

Thanks

Niad
 
Hi Niad. Sorry it took so long to post, had a baby on Dec. 18th and just have been trying to get settled in at home and get some sort of a routine. Since having my baby, my back pains are right back to what they were before I was pregnant. Now that i'm not anymore, I see that being pregnant kind of helped the pain but that is a treatment that I will not be doing again for quite a while if ever.

The Discogram? Have you asked your docs about one or if they would reccomend one? I find it very strange that no one has mentioned one before. That is the last test I had before resorting to surgery because it confirmed that the pain I was having was coming from my degenerated disc. I wish you the best of luck in finding a new doc. Just don't give up hope. It took me almost a year for someone to listen to me. Do lots of research on any surrounding hospitals, docs and their interests. Find one with a special interest in spines. I know how frustrating it is. My next appt with a new neurosurgeon is Jan 21st. I am excited because he is going to examine my ENTIRE spine and not just my lurabar. No one has done that yet and I am having alot of pain in my middle/upper back. Have you tried massages? Not as a treatment but it can help alot with the muscle pain surrounding your problem areas. I can't have another massage for 4 weeks because of giving birth. I am eagerly awaiting when I can have another one, they actually helped alot.

Happy New Year to you and I wish you the best of luck in finding a caring doctor that will listen to you. I will check in tomorrow or a few days.
 
Hi, Hansen36 and thank you for your help and advice.

Congratulations on your new baby and Happy New Year. :)

I haven't mentioned the discogram to my Neurosurgeon yet but I am planning on mentioning that I'd consider one next time I see him. I will only find out if my pain is related to the discs or to something else entirely if I have a discogram as an MRI will not show where the pain is coming from as it only images the spine. They seem to only go by what the MRI shows and they don't read any of the radiologists reports either which I also find a bit strange.

The other test I would like is a contrast MRI of the whole of my spine as he only ordered plain MRIs for some reason.

I'm determined to find the right doc but I know it will take some time. I understand how awful it can be to have to wait that long for someone to listen to you as I waited 3 years just to get to have my first ever referral to a spine surgeon and that one was one that didn't end up seeing me anyway which was a complete waste of time as he said there was "nothing wrong with your spine." according to the physiotherapist which he triaged me onto instead so that I didn't get to see him as it was a waste of his time. At first my GP just didn't believe it was as bad as it was at the time and said that I'd sprained my back muscles or it was just growing pains! I went to another GP in the same practice and again he said that it was just muscular and sent me to a physiotherapist for excercises before even trying to find out what it was!

Luckily when I went back to my GP after complaining of the below satisfactory service and treatment the surgeon that wouldn't see me gave me, he sent another letter to that same surgeon asking him to see me but again the same surgeon ignored the GP's letter so I went back again. The GP's face was a picture when I told him that the surgeon still hadn't seen me as he thought the surgeon had seen me which is why I had come in to see him! He wasn't very happy at all. He sent another letter to him.

I got a phonecall from the hospital out of the blue, asking me if I could attend an appointment to see this other spine surgeon who is a neurosurgeon locum and I said "Yes, please." as I at least would see a spine surgeon, even though it isn't the one that still refused to see me! Though I wouldn't have wanted to see the one that refused to see me anyway! That is how I came to get to see the neurosurgeon I am seeing currently.

The one thing that is good that this neurosurgeon did was to MRI the Cervical and Thoracic regions of my spine as well. I've just had these and am awaiting to see him for the results of them. He has also had my head MRId.

One orthopaedic surgeon who I also saw didn't suggest to me to get my whole spine MRId either which does seem strange really as I'd have thought that'd been the first thing they'd have done really. It seems that it's the neurosurgeons that tend to want to look at the whole of the spine.

I massage myself when it gets really sore but I have never had a therapist do it as I'm not sure on having my spine touched yet as I still don't know what is wrong with it. I would consider having massages knowing that you have benefitted from them but I have got to find out what is wrong with my spine first so that I don't do any further damage, though I don't think a massage would.

I have also considered acupuncture as I have heard this is effective for back pain.

I've got to go now but I'll keep you updated on what happens.

Also, Happy New Year too and good luck with your new neurosurgeon.

Kind regarRAB

Niad
 
Has anybody experienced these same treatments/opinions like how I've been treated?

Please reply as I'm feeling alone and not sure what to do about all this. :(

RegarRAB

Niad
 
Hello Niad.

I am 22 and had a L4-5 spinal fusion 2 years ago. I also have DDD of my lurabar spine and a few Schmorl's Nodes. All of my problems are result of a motor vehicle accident in 2004. It is NOT normal for such a young person to have any of these problems. Don't let them dismiss you and your symptoms. That is one thing that I learned early on. You have to be almost borderline obnoxious and very firm on your pain. They see so many young people faking pain and issues to try and get pain meRAB these days. It took me almost a year for someone to take me seriously. If necessary, see as many doctors as it takes for one to listen to you and take you seriously. I can't tell you how many doctors I saw before one finally took me seriously. Every doctor that I have talked to since says how tragic it is for such a young person to have these problems, I say "Live a day in my life buddy." I completely understand what you are going through. Look for a neurosurgeon, and one that has special interests in the spine. Since my fusion, I also show signs of 2 more degenerating discs in my lurabar spine and am having the pain go up my spine now. I am having a baby in 4 days via csection because of my back and after the baby is here they are going to MRI my entire spine to see what is going on. I can tell you, I went through physical therapy, coutless steroid injections, a discogram, SO much pain medication, multiple chiropractors before we even considered surgery. I did it as my last resort because nothing else worked for me. When you finally do find someone to listen to you, try and avoid surgery as well. It has its upsides but it also has many downsides. I wish you the best of luck. This was alot of information and it's not all happy, cheery stuff. I find it best to just be honest and not try and make it out to be something that its not, easy. I will check back in tomorrow to see if you posted again. Sorry you haven't gotten any replies back. And again, best of luck to you.
 
Hi, Hansen36. :)

Sorry I took a while to post.

Thanks for your help and advice. I found it very informative and I totally agree with you on being honest. :)

I don't remeraber exactly any severe accidents apart from falling onto my bottom from a hamock and also when I was really young, being pushed off a swing by a bully and went quite a distance before landing on my tummy but not exactly on my tummy. I may have rolled onto my side a bit. As I was so young I can't exactly remeraber how I fell when I landed. I wonder if any of these sort of things could cause this sort of trauma to my spine?

The other thing is I still say it could have something to do with that virus that I had when I was 17 as I've had lower back pain and neurological (leg sensations such as tingling, nurabness and hot/cold feelings) symptoms ever since.

In May this year I noticed I started to get nurab areas on my pubic bone and then I started to have mild frequency. In the end of August this year I then got worse with the frequency and now also have full bladder feeling constantly with it. I have had urodynamics testing and have been reported to have a bladder that doesn't fully empty. I'm not sure if this too is connected to my back problem. It seems too much of a coincidence.

I've heard that quite a few people who have similar symptoms with their legs and backs have a vitamin or mineral deficiency such as folic acid, B12, etc. I asked my doctor about this and he said I haven't got it and that he'd not test me for anything to do with my back as he thinks it'll make me anxious! Basically I can't see how a doctor can say I haven't or have got something when they haven't even tested me! I feel worse not having tests to rule things out as at least then if they don't find anything I know I've been given the best chance by exhausting all the possibilities but my GP doesn't understand me and refused to help find out what could be causing this. I've lost my faith in doctors as they train to do medicine and help people but all they do really is do it for the money! I don't know...I'm just fed up of doctors and their attitudes towarRAB people in pain who are crying out for help. It's sad to think that there are a lot of people out there who are in the same boat.

I have now decided to see another GP in the same practice and see what he says. If he dismisses my problems too then I don't really know what to do as I can't change practices yet as I am kind of in the middle of seeing spine specialists and it'll make it difficult.

I have now noticed that I am getting a red scaly rash on my face near my nose and sort of on the cheeks but not quite. I had it once before for the first time in early (first week) of Deceraber and it went away and now it's come back yesterday and is still here today.

I also had a separate rash that was salmon/tan in colour, oval shaped blotches on my chest area, near my chest bone. I had this about two times now as well. I wasn't taking anything medication wise.

I have heard that rashes like these could be symptoms of auto-immune diseases.

The thing that is a little concerning is that when I saw my neurosurgeon about my spine, he didn't seem to take much of an interest in my bladder problem even though they can be related to spine conditions. Should I demand I see another spine specialist that knows about bladders as well? This specialist I'm seeing doesn't seem very clued up on a lot of things that, in my eyes are just common sense and should be taken note of. He kind of ignored the vitamin and mineral deficiency too! Do these doctors care? Do they know what they are talking about? I just don't know and will probably end up treating myself as they just can't be bothered. By the way, just in case you might be wondering, I'm in the UK.

In my eyes doctors and GPs are a complete waste of my time. They just sit there and do nothing about their patients' problems and this is the state of health today. I'm hoping it'll change one day and for the better as patients can't carry on being treated by doctors and GPs in this terrible and tragic way.

The GPs and doctors I've been to are the opposite on handing out and telling you to take pills every day. They have basically tried to drug me up rather than trying their best to find out the cause of why I've got the symptoms I've got. I'm not one to accept their 'live with it. You've got nothing wrong. It's in your head' quotes as I don't agree with it.

I have had doctors/GPs tell me it's in my head which, yes, it's possible but no, it's not in my head as when I sleep I still have the symptoms. They said this about my bladder frequency. I couldn't believe a doctor/GP would say such an awful thing to a patient and it opened my eyes to how some (probably most) doctors/GPs treat their patients like they're mental. Basically I hate doctors and GPs and think they just do it for the money, otherwise they'd treat their patients a little better. I've never felt so discriminated against in my life to be honest.

I totally agree on your "Live a day in my life buddy" saying, as I have always thought that doctors and GPs and specialists will never know what it's like and how awful it is to have to suffer and be told to "Live with it." if they have been so fortunate as to have to not suffer like their patients continually do. In fact I nearly said this to the two that said it's in my head as I'm just fed up and want them to actually think about what it's like for the patient as I don't think they do enough of this.

I've had physiotherapy and pain medication but that's all I got as regarRAB treatment. They said that steroid injection won't work even though they've never tried them on me! They have never ever mentioned about a discogram! I've heard that a discogram is a good test for finding out if my degenerated discs are actually the cause of the pain. Yet, the two spine specialists (one an orthopaedic spine surgeon and the other a neurosurgeon specialising in spines) never even bothered mentioning this test or even mentioning that the degenerated discs/Shmorls node were not normal for a young person. Even though they are spine specialists I don't really believe them when they said that my degenerated discs wouldn't get any worse. I think differently...

As for the effectiveness of physiotherapy I didn't find this to be very effective in helping me. It actually made it worse. I've found that resting and not doing anything activity wise that I know will set it off to be the best treatment so far. I've shaped the things I do to revolve around it and that's the only way I can cope as of currently. Nothing the doctors or spine specialists have done for me (Physiotherapy only, nothing else) has been as effective as what I do myself. In fact they are just hurting me even more. It's not worth it. I'd rather do what I feel is right as I know my body, doctors never will as they haven't got the problem so don't know how to treat it.

I am now thinking of trying acupuncture as this is the only other conservative treatment apart from prolotherapy and maybe steroid/other injections that I feel could be of help to me now.

Surgery is certainly a last resort, but if all else fails I won't really hesitate then. I totally agree with you on it being last resort as I might be one of the few lucky ones that finRAB conservative treatment helpful.

I have heard quite a few positive stories on surgery though and also bad stories on surgery so it's probably a 50/50 chance or thereabouts in whether it is successful or not. Not sure.

I think a lot of success depenRAB on the actual surgeon and the condition that is being treated. If the surgeon is renowned to be clinically competent and known for successful outcomes in his/her field then that alone could make the success rate for the patient go up.

Sorry for this long post of mine. I just thought I'd share a few more of my ideas as to what my back problem could be caused by and my opinions on doctors.

I like honest people like you as I feel that I can relate because I too am a very honest person and I like to know the real things that are true sort of thing. I don't hold back if I have something to say as it helps others too. :)

Thanks for your help and advice. I appreciate it a lot in these confusing, uncertain times. :)

Kind regarRAB

Niad
 
Update:I have now had the MRI my neurosurgeon has requested of my head, neck and upper back and am awaiting an appointment with him to hear of the results of them all.
 
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