Someone pls explain why

A

ARTmom

New member
Squeamous said:
I think what Snee was saying was that the Japanese have every right to have a complex against the West since the West apparently dragged them kicking and screaming into the 20th century and bombed the fuck out of them in WW2.

I think that's probably just as you say, the result of having a Western guilt complex. As I've said a few pages back, the Japanese are doing exceptionally well out of being a world power and I've never got the impression there's any bitterness towards the West in that regard. They will keep bleating on about the atom bombs but if they weren't such a proud people only one of those bombs need have gone off, and it was their choice to enter WW2 anyway.

Throughout history nations and empires have been exposed to external influence. It's how the world moves on. To suggest that anyone has a right to be upset about that is a nonsense.
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Then I think that Snee could benefit from trying to find out about the culture of he Japanese and the Chinese, indeed all Asian peoples. Historically their culture has developed in its own way, and the way that they chose to interact with other people is very much a part of their culture as is the way they view the actions of other people.

Portraying them as backwards or ill-informed because you don't understand how they think, or what their value system is, or because you have some kind of misplaced/misguided guilt complex over things that were done by your forebears is insulting to say the least, to your forebears as much as to the Japanese.

I'm afraid his comments are no better than the kind of thing said about African peoples and their ways by ill-informed western people who believe that everyone must comply with western values.
 
Beats me why Snee is taking any flak over this as he was the one arguing against the original negative posting regarding Japanese culture. Even the most cursory glance through Snee's posts over the years would demonstrate that he is one of the least culturally imperialist posters on here.

Blunt is fine - lots of us are - but generally it is better to be blunt from a position of knowledge regarding the other poster's position rather than simply being blunt for the sake of it - unless you are Billy Dean obviousment.

Prior to the 19th century Japan was a feudal society and had (still has) a rich and unique culture. As Snee rightly points out feudal is a system of land ownership and patronage not a statement regarding technological ability. Japan was insular in all senses of the word but could see the advantages of utilising Western technology. At the same time the 19th century was an era of Empire. The US was expanding its influence westwards and European powers were grabbing bits of the Far East. The Russians had serious ambitions in the area too. It is not surprising that the Japanese felt uneasy about these incursions into their sphere of influence. The war against China in 1895 and Russia in 1904 (and the serious kicking inflicted on the Tsar's butt) proved to them that they had the resources and skills to call the shots in the region but tensions remained with the US and others in the region. In this respect Japanese Imperial ambitions were no different from that of Russia, Europe and the US. Although Empire was dying as a concept in the West post 1919 the wheels did not fall off that particular bogie until 1945 for Japan. It is possible to overstate militarism in Japanese society by concentrating on an modern Empire period that lasted little more than 50 years. That horrible things were done in the pusuit of that Empire is undeniable - it seems to go with the territory of Empire building and conquest.

PS wasn't aware the Swedes had that much to be guilty about in respect of Empire.
 
That's an interesting history lesson Biggles, but does it have to do with the point?

Snee's point was that the Japanese have every right to feel negatively about their treatment at the hands of the West due to being bullied by the bigger boys and then nuked.

I'm not expecting him to take any flak at all for anything. I thought I was just arguing against that point.
 
I was demonstrating that Japan had encountered the negative as well as the positive aspects of Imperial expansion and that Snee's point that this had encouraged their own military expansion was not an unsound one.

The use of nuclear weapons is another matter and one that was controversial at the time. Yes, it hurried the end of the war but there is much in the argument that the primary aim was to prevent the Russian army entering from the north of Japan resulting in another iron curtain in another part of the world. Peace negotians were already under way and a wholesale bloody invasion was not likely to happen. A fact that supports the view that the bombs had a broader political purpose was that the key demand of the Japanese in the peace overtures (that the Emperor stay) was granted despite Japan's "unconditional" surrender after the bombing. However, that is by and by.

WTF were we talking about again - how did we get to tentacle pron to this? :unsure:
 
Because he makes statements like this
In the mid-1800s japan was forced to open trade with foreign nations, by a mostly american fleet of ironclads, kickstarting their turning from a tradionalist, extremely insular society, with few interests in matters outside of Japan (and even much of that came from europeans forcing their way in, after a fashion).
And this
If it hadn't been for some merkin-tard parking a fleet inside of their border in 1854, they might still have been messing about with swords and horses at the time of WWII.
And this
It was only after 1854 they started assimilating western technology with a vengeance, built a fleet and started wars, and even fought on the side of the allies in WWI.
And this
I figure the only reason they were in any real wars during those years was because of western influences.
Whilst ignoring so much of history, he ignores that Japan had been trading with other nations the whole time, he ignores that they had actually set up a schools system to teach western technology and knowledge, he ignores that they'd actually traded technology with Americans before the shogunate collapsed.

He portrays them as insular and with few interests in matters outside of Japan, and ignores the fact that Japanese people of that time weren't allowed to leave Japan, he goes onto say that they'd still have been playing with swords and horses if it wasn't for the west... forcing ourselves and ways upon them. In short he ignored large parts of history and portrayed them as backwards and ill-informed when the complete opposite is true, and he did this to support his ill founded personal theory that Japanese people feel some kind of animosity towards the west... RAB

Blunt is fine - lots of us are - but generally it is better to be blunt from a position of knowledge regarding the other poster's position rather than simply being blunt for the sake of it - unless you are Billy Dean obviousment.
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I'm afraid JP doesn't agree with you... in fact many people don't seem to agree with you... blunt isn't fine according to them. Maybe you should try and sell that to them, I personally gave up giving a fuck a while ago.
Prior to the 19th century Japan was a feudal society and had (still has) a rich and unique culture. As Snee rightly points out feudal is a system of land ownership and patronage not a statement regarding technological ability. Japan was insular in all senses of the word but could see the advantages of utilising Western technology. At the same time the 19th century was an era of Empire. The US was expanding its influence westwards and European powers were grabbing bits of the Far East. The Russians had serious ambitions in the area too. It is not surprising that the Japanese felt uneasy about these incursions into their sphere of influence. The war against China in 1895 and Russia in 1904 (and the serious kicking inflicted on the Tsar's butt) proved to them that they had the resources and skills to call the shots in the region but tensions remained with the US and others in the region. In this respect Japanese Imperial ambitions were no different from that of Russia, Europe and the US. Although Empire was dying as a concept in the West post 1919 the wheels did not fall off that particular bogie until 1945 for Japan. It is possible to overstate militarism in Japanese society by concentrating on an modern Empire period that lasted little more than 50 years. That horrible things were done in the pusuit of that Empire is undeniable - it seems to go with the territory of Empire building and conquest.

PS wasn't aware the Swedes had that much to be guilty about in respect of Empire.
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No mention of the expansionist ambitions of the Japanese before the shogunate closed off Japan to foreign contact and virtually imprisoned the people of Japan then, or of the massacres that were committed of Japanese people who dared to become Christian 30,000 wasn't it... sliced and diced according to the 'warriors way' eh?
 
Biggles said:
I was demonstrating that Japan had encountered the negative as well as the positive aspects of Imperial expansion and that Snee's point that this had encouraged their own military expansion was not an unsound one.

The use of nuclear weapons is another matter and one that was controversial at the time. Yes, it hurried the end of the war but there is much in the argument that the primary aim was to prevent the Russian army entering from the north of Japan resulting in another iron curtain in another part of the world. Peace negotians were already under way and a wholesale bloody invasion was not likely to happen. A fact that supports the view that the bombs had a broader political purpose was that the key demand of the Japanese in the peace overtures (that the Emperor stay) was granted despite Japan's "unconditional" surrender after the bombing. However, that is by and by.

WTF were we talking about again - how did we get to tentacle pron to this? :unsure:
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Mmmm, but the words 'key demand' are important here. That wasn't their only demand. What they basically wanted was to save face, and to surrender in deed but not in name. They wanted to keep a lot of their infrastructure and politics operating not just their monarchy. I'm not surprised the cheeky bastards got nuked a second time.
 
manicgeek said:
No mention of the expansionist ambitions of the Japanese before the shogunate closed off Japan to foreign contact and virtually imprisoned the people of Japan then, or of the massacres that were committed of Japanese people who dared to become Christian 30,000 wasn't it... sliced and diced according to the 'warriors way' eh?
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Which position are you taking - that they were open to Western influence prior to Imperial incursions into the Far East or that they were insular and tended to view foreign influence with a degree of hostility?

The Chinese did not exactly go a bundle on foreign influences either but like the Japanese were interested in trade and science. Would the Japanese have contemplated war with America in 41 if US influence had not extended across the Pacific?
 
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