Simplified T5 "not enough memory to download" problem

A

ANCELMO

New member
I am reposting this as no one replied to my earlier post of 6/8/05 afternoon. I have figured out a few things and reworded some parts to make it easier to reply.

This is a long post with many questions. However
-the most important ones are (1) (2) and (4)
-If you reply on only 1 or 2 questions that would be helpful.

I am new to Palm's and PDA's; I have never owned one. Hence, please try to spell things out a little more for me in your answer. However, I fix people's PCs (HW and SW) for a living so I am quite technically knowledgeable in general. It's just that things like pdb file format (basic stuff on a Palm) are new to me. Plus all the simple stuff one would know if one ever owned a Palm, I don't know that.

My customer complains that he gets a "not enough memory to download" error message (not necessarily the exact error message), when he syncs his BRAND NEW T5 with a medical application on his PC. Card Info says 160 MB total, 150 MB free, 10 MB in use. so we know he has only used 10 MB of the 160 MB Internal Flash Drive. . How much of the Program Memory is free I do not know.

(1) How can I find out how much of the Program Memory is free? (what icons to touch on the T5 interface and so on). As perhaps there is NOT a lot of free space left there and that is the problem.

-Will Applications/Info/Size tell me the available Program Memory?
- Will Status Bar/System Info tell me the available Program Memory?

(2) I assume that applications designed for the Palm (PRC files and PDB data files) are not the same apps that run on PCs. I assume that they are much smaller so they can work in the much more limited resources of a Palm compared with a PC.

So I surprised that on a brand new Palm with only 6-7% of the Internal Flash Memory used, that there is not enough memory left to download an app DESIGNED to work on a Palm.

In other words I want to know :
(a) Is the app or it's data simply too big to work in the T5 free space (Program or Flash) and hence will never run on the Palm T5 without an expansion card being added
OR
(b) Is he probably trying to download a PC version of the app and he needs to contact the app provider and ask for a Palm version
OR
(c) Should he be doing a File Transfer instead of a Sync as the File Transfer loads the app and data into the much larger free space of the Flash Drive (150 MB here) instead of the smaller Free space in Program Memory (55 MB or less if other Palm apps have been sync'd first)..
OR
(d) Some other possibility

With regard to (b) above, please ALSO answer this question:
Does Sync (from the CD with a T5) display ONLY Palm apps and data (PRC and PDB files) or ALL apps and data? IF the latter is true, then the error message is probably due to trying to download a PC app that is too big to fit in the more limited resources of the T5.

I have also hear of conduit and other utitlies that allow file types like jpg and doc to be downloaded. Regarding these utilities do they convert the doc/jpg files to PDB format before they reach the Palm. Or do they download them as original format, emaning original size which may be too large for the T5.

Also please answer the same question for File Transfer instead of Sync.

In your answer please spell out in detail how I can FIND OUT which of the 4 possibilities above (a) - (d) applies here (i.e what exactly do I do to diagnose the problem and provide a solution).

Also

(3) Why are there two kinds of memory on the T5 instead of one type?
For example is the Program Memory faster access like memory on a Windows PC and the Internal Flash Drive is slower access like the disk on a Windows PC? I am surprised if that is the answer because they are all part of the same physical medium, the 256 MB memory on the T5. On a PC, the HD and the memory are completely different devices with vastly different operating characteristics.

I do know that both Program Memory and the Flash drive can have applications on it . And I know from info on the Palm site that the Flash Memory is not cleared when the Palm battery looses all charge while the Program Memory is cleared in that event.

What I want to know is what are the OTHER differences between Flash Drive memory and Program memory?

Also please also reply as to any disadvantages to running apps from the Internal Flash Drive versus from Program Memory.

In particular, the Palm pdf for the T5 says that the Flash Drive is used for "infrequently used" apps. WHY SO?? This implies that apps in some way run worse on the Flash Drive OR it could be that the Sync feature does not automatically update app info on the Flash Drive. What is the disadvantage of runnings apps on the Flash Drive?

(4) Would the Palm One Quick Install feature of the T5 do a better job of installing his medical app then Sync (ie. maybe install to EITHER Program memory OR Internal Flash Drive OR an expansion card (if there is one) depending on where there was enoough memory for the app and hence avoid the error message). Because Sync only installs to Program Memory.

The Palm T5 pdf says that the Quick Install feature uses the type of file in some way to determine where to install the app. Please elaborate i.e what types of apps go to Program Memory and what types to Flash Drive.

By the way, I do not know if the T5 owner has any Expansion cards installed yet.

(5) Please provide a link to a "everything you need to know about Palms (or better yet Tungsten Palms) in 2 -3 pages" or a "very brief 2-3 page Dummy's guide to the Palm (or Palm T5)" so I can get up to speed on the basics and ESPECIALLY the user interface. So when I go to solve the customer problem I appear to know more about the T5 than he learned while doing the basic setup.

With regard to (5) I have found a T5 User guide at www.palmone.com/us/support/handbook...ent5_ug_en.pdf, then select Basics in Bookmarks Menu on right (or page 40 of 676) and the physical buttons and knobs on the T5 plus the basic on-screen interface is described.

However a non-Palm-web-site link might be better that only goes over the IMPORTANT and COMMONLY USED interface items (both physical and on screen) similar to the apporach taken by the well known Dummy series of yellow-black cover books. Except I am looking for 2 or 3 pages here, not a book.

Regards,
Mike
 

There are still many unresolved bugs with T5, since new memory management. Not every program works with 160mb external drive like with regular SD card.



Yes.



No, storage is not a problem here, At least for T5 it is. T5 has limitiation to only 4mb dynamic heap (equivalent of RAM on pc), and only 10mb db heap (larger databases will not work, as with earlier palms)



No idea what he is doing. Contact the provider??? ARe you kidding me??
If your client can't distinguish palm program from pc program - than he indeed has a problem.




NO, you cannot run app from 160mb drive,because application itself and all it's databases have to be in RAM (T5's 55mb - is equivalent of RAM on earlier models) There is a way to move apps from ram to card, but that's another story. Card is designed for another data, like video, music, pictures mostly.
No way there isn't anough space in RAM, cos 3mb app is considered very large. It's like somebody with 250GB harddisk said that he doesn't have space to install the freecell.




Not sure what you mean by this. But if you want to help your user, and understnad what he is doing - than download palmOS emulator on your pc, and repeat his steps.




You need to see what he is doing wrong. And there are million way to go wrong.
Possible ways to install new app on palm:
a) hotsynch app ant it's data (pdb and prc)
b) copy (or download) app and data to the card, and than copy to main ram using palm os file manager (like free FileZ)
c) in case this is only one prc file - you can put it in /palm/launcher folder






That because T5 is frekin slow device (sorry T5 users, thats my Imo)
T5 is an exception. on earlier versions like T3 - there was indeed SDram (100mhz) memory for program area that was some 10 times faster than any flash.
Not sure T5 users would like what i say here. So i better stop.




55mb part is emulated as program memory (i.e ram) , while 160mb is emulated as external SD card.




Talking about normal palm - running apps from program area (ram) is instantly, while running apps from external card requires to copy app and all databases to ram before run it.
But in case of T5 - this all is slow, since all this is flash mem on T5.
 
This is for junglemike (who replied) but also for any others who wish to reply.

Junglemike, Thanks for your reply.

First, since I posted here I learned the following: The medical app is already installed (I assume to Program Memory). And there was no error during the install.

When he syncs to install the application updates he gets the error message about "not enough memory to download" (which may not be the exact wording). And the app is a Palm app, not a Windows app he is trying mistakenly to install on the T5.

This removes some but not all of my questions.

Given the above, my remaining questions are as follows:

As far as I know Sync only downloads to Program Memory (PM in what follows). So there is probably not enough PM left for the updates.

(1) Is the correct way to confirm this as follows (please reply if this is not the procedure to use)
- Use Applications/Info/Size to get the available PM
- Use Windows to find the size of the updates
And make sure the update size exceeds the available PM.

If not is there any other possible explanation for the error message like a known bug in the T5?

(2) Assuming the updates are bigger then available PM, one approach is to delete apps or unneeded contacts or completed tasks or old Outlook messages from the PM to clear up space. But finding which mesages and tasks are old is time-consuming and may still not clear up enough space. And if an app is deleted then that app still needs to be reinstalled somewhere

(3) All of which leads us to

Why can't I delete the medical app from PM and use File Transfer to reinstall on the Flash Drive (FD in what follows) and then install the updates to FD. (I'm not sure how to do the latter as Sync probably automates this update process and with FD I have to do it manually)

Or can the above be done to an expansion card if that would be a better choice then FD. (I think he owns no expansion card right now but if that were the only solution the T5 owner could buy one).

There is a BIG conflict here.
(a) junglemike says
> "NO, you cannot run app from 160mb drive,because application itself and all it's databases have to be in RAM (T5's 55mb - is equivalent of RAM on earlier models) There is a way to move apps from ram to card, but that's another story. Card is designed for another data, like video, music, pictures mostly"

Yet the T5 documentation on the Palm Website disagrees where it says at http://www.palmone.com/us/support/handbooks/tungstent5/en/moving.pdf , Internal FD section, 2nd sentence where it says

"You can store any type of file, folder or application on this drive..."

Junglemike, can you please reply as to why you say the FD is for data and the Palm docs say it is ALSO for applications?

Or junglemike are you saying that the app can be on the FD but when you try to run it, the app and data will be moved automatically to PM. And if there was not enough space in PM to update the app, then when the updated app is moved from FD to PM, there will also not be enough space on PM to complete the move??.

Also junglemike regarding your statement in same part of your reply
>"NO, you cannot run app from 160mb drive.....No way there isn't anough space in RAM, cos 3mb app is considered very large. It's like somebody with 250GB harddisk said that he doesn't have space to install the freecell."

What do you mean by "3mb app is considered very large" ?? Because the PM is 55 MB (before any apps are installed) so why would 3 mb be large compared to 55 mb ??

Or is it where you said "T5 has limitiation to only 4mb dynamic heap (equivalent of RAM on pc)". Is that why you say a 3mb app is large for PM on a T5? Please clarify.

Even if that were true, that does not explain the error message when trying to sync the medical app updates. The 4 mb dynamic heap limit would only come into play at run-time, not at download time.

Which brings me to the confusion regarding your comment where I say
> Is the app or it's data simply too big to work in the T5 free space (Program or Flash)
AND you reply
> No, storage is not a problem here, At least for T5 it is

Please note those two sentences are contradictory to each other.
PLEASE CLARIFY. Are you saying storage is the problem on the T5 for this situation or not??

And if you say storage is not the problem then how can the T5 user get an error about "not enough memory to download" when he syncs the app updates? Remember the error occurs at sync (i.e download) time, not run time.

Also junglemike please clarify what you mean by your last comment
>"while running apps from external card requires to copy app and all databases to ram before run it. But in case of T5 - this all is slow, since all this is flash mem on T5."

Why would the result of copying app etc. to RAM from external card be any different on T5 than on older Palms? Or are you saying performance is slow via this approach if I install app to FD but not if an expansion card is added to T5 and install is done to that expansion card?

Finally, regarding the above possibility, where you say
."copy (or download) app and data to the card, and than copy to main ram using palm os file manager (like free FileZ)"

As I am new to the Palm can you explain in a little more detail how you copy an app and data from the FD or from the expansion card to PM. Can you spell out the steps a bit more? Or is it like drag and drop once I bring up the file manager?

Also what is "free FileZ"?

Regards,
Mike
 

Look, it is very hard to find out the problem, if that person is unfamiliar with an issue. There can be 10000 things that go wrong. I guess

1) your client needs to read a read.me file that comes with the app, because there is simply NO universal solution, that will work for all cases. Every app has it's things, Especially if it is Medial dictionary.

2) Your client needs to check whether this app is compatible with T5 (and there is good chance that it isn't)




Look, i understand why you ask these questions,, as i am myself former pc technitian, but things are simply different. There isn't just RAm and hard space like on PC, there is Dynamic heap (4mb on T5,) DB heap (10mb), program area (55mb), external drive (160mb) and many more issues. I guess you give me a link to this dictionary and i'll download the trial version ( if possible) and see what i can find




Yes, of course you _can_ store apps (with databases) on card - in fact - you can put there *any* files, just like on hard drive - but the application will NOT WORK, (unless it was moved specially with designed tool)




I mean, that 3mb - is very large size for palm application. Average palm application size is around 100-300kb



Again, this error can mean anything. Me and you can't say anything, untill we know what's it all about.
And yes - i repeat, it is very strange that T5 uses has not enought space to install app. 55mb - is really a ton. It just like filling all your 250gb disk with soft. And this is especially less probablye, cos your clien is a new user. Wouldn't you be surprised, if new PC user would fill his 120gb disk in first week?



Because T5 has slow program area memroy (which is flash), while on older devices, this program area resides in SDRAM.



Filez - is free file manager for palm.
Get it here:
http://www.freewarepalm.com/utilities/filez.shtml
In case you downloaded to external card (or SD) a program, you need to launch any file manager (like filez), select all pdb and prc files , related to your program, and then copy them to program area (main ram). Other wise - you will not be able to use it.

 
In addition to Jungle Mike's very complete responses, may I just suggest that a link to the program in question and the exact text of the error message, and at what step in loading he receives the error message, would be a great help. It may be that this program simply isn't compatible with the T5 file system, in which case we are wasting a considerable amount of time troubleshooting other issues that may have nothing to do with this problem.
 
I own a T5. I wanted to add one little addenum. I have learned how to be smarter than the average T5. I have learned that due to some loading quirks, the T5 doesn't handle multiple files/applications loading at the same time especially if even if one of the files/application is a large file. So, when I have to load a large file, I load it separately, often customizing my loading options for all other files to do nothing to load it in.
One other way I have outsmarted my T5 is through the Drive mode and load large files into the internal card. I would do this after I have loaded smaller files through sync process. Then I use McFile or FileZ to move the large file from the internal card area into the actual palm area.
As an added bonus, I have discovered that I can often leave the larger file in the internal card area. Often times this larger file is a database file. I then go to my T5, open up the application and the database associates itself to the database in the internal card area.
Example of applications that I have that works like this - Dictionary To Go, Thesaurus to Go.
Carol
 
Unfortunately the solution had nothing to do with my questions and hence with your answers. But I appreciate your replies as they will help me in the future.

I arrived at the Palm T5. The exact error message on the PC was "Install sync failed" and on the Palm was "Out of storage space during update of database.....". The available PM was 23 MB and the updates to download less than 2 MB so all my questions were irrelevant.

I called Palm Tech support and they said that lots of Palm T5 owners had been calling them about this and it was a BUG due to a corrupt file. Either in the Palm SW or in 3rd party apps on the Palm involving games and MP3s and so on. The solution was to rename the Backup folder on the PC (Program Files/Palm/Backup) to BackupOld (to prevent it from being sync'd to the Palm again) and to delete the 8 Install folder files (I believe they were at Program Files/Palm/Install on the PC). These two steps effectively deleted the "corrupt files". Then do a Hotsynch again and sure enough all 11 updates to one medical app Epocrates and 60 updates to another medical app ABX downloaded and we were done.

Regards,
Mike
 
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