S-Turns and Chicanes

fradon44

New member
Not sure where to put this so just throwing it in this section.

I've been doing some searching online for a writeup on s-turn/chicane techniques from a professional racer or riding school but I can't find any. I have a bunch from the sportrider.com website but none of them touch on this specific technique.

I'm the Motorcycle Safety rep for my unit here and a guy told me about an S-turn he took (he's a new rider) that he didn't feel good at the end of and ended up running wide and into the on-coming lane upon exit.

I want to get a good technical write up on it so I can send it out as we have a lot of young sport bike riders and I think they would benefit from this info.

I don't want to just dish them the ole "well I do it this way" line. I want some credibility behind it, which is why I'm looking for something substantial.

I know some of you race so hit me with a step by step for this type of corner: entry speed, throttle position through corners, lines chosen, trail brake or no, lean angle, body position... stuff like that. Thanks in advance guys!


J
 
Draven, I'm a unit mentor as well, cool beans. How about keith Code's write-up's in motorcyclist magazine... sorry I don't have the exact issue in front of me, but in this last few months he's done one of his episodes of "Up To Speed, Code Break" in Motorcyclist magazine where he breaks down a double apex, and talks about technique for similar. I've read it a few times as well as most of his other articles, very informative if not refresher training material.
I can say thats it not the June 09 issue, which is in front of me

I have noticed while mentoring riders that run wide, they the following common issues:
1. Letting off the throttle, not realizing the throttle keeps the bike leaned over, they relax the throttle upon entry and it gradually run wide, this makes the rider panic and the let all the way of the throttle ending up in opposing lane.

2. Target fixation, not cranking the neck and looking through the turn, trusting that the bike will follow where the head and eyes are pointed.

As for chicane's, not sure there are too many on the streets . On the track you don't need to worry about an "opposing lane" issue, so you try to move through them in the straightest line (fastest line) possible. On the street I treat them like each one is a small curve, setting up entry to the outside, leaning through the curve cutting the apex, then if you have your eyes looking ahead and notice there is another curve (hence chicance) when you exit you stay wide which sets your entry up for the next curve and repeat through the entire section.

If you haven't yet, pick up a copy of Keith Codes Twist of the Wrist DVD, use that for some new rider training, or refresher training, older piece, but still packed with good info for newbs and reminders for experienced riders.
 
Taking S-turns and chicanes are different from person to person. There is no 'perfect' line. Speed and lean angle also differ from person to person. It's all in your experience as a rider and your ability to judge the road conditions, traffic, etc. If your buddy is running into the oncoming lane, perhaps he should work on his lines, not chopping the throttle, and not fixating on a target. Outside-inside-outside. Slow in, fast out. But this is so general and there's so many kinds of turns out there in the streets and canyons. What may work for some, may not work for all.

If your buddy is a new rider, I think what would benefit him the most is proper body positioning and knowing how to properly take lines. There's also the fear of thinking you're leaning 'too much' for the newer guys.

The best advice you can give new riders is to work on riding properly, rather than riding fast. Being fast comes with riding properly.

You should refer your buddy to A Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code.
 
MSF RiderCoach and Schwantz School graduate here... (and still learning!)

Outside/Inside/Outside works on single radius curves, but comes more complicated on multiple curve corners/turns, double apex corners, etc. Depending on the type, structure and changing radii of the curves, it is not always possible to employ a straight O/I/O technique.

I would suggest there are two possible and different challenges here, and they are based on whether the s-turn/chicane is a known or unknown quantity.

If it is a known quantity, i.e. one that is routinely ridden (track, routine road, etc), then the solution is to study/map the path by reversing it, that is starting with your desired exit point and working the path backwards to the starting turn-in point. That way you're sure of ending up where you want to be. Then go run it to see if it works, starting slow and working up to speed.

If the s-turn/chicane is an unknown, that is one not routinely ridden, or comes up without warning and/or you can't see the path all the way through, then the answer is simple: Slow in and through until you can see through the final turn and out to your exit point. At that point, good sight and smooth throttle roll-on will carry you to the exit point. "Slow in, fast out" applies here. Especially on the street you can't afford a mistake, given the very real possibility of oncoming traffic.

Almazing brings up a very valid point: "The best advice you can give new riders is to work on riding properly, rather than riding fast. Being fast comes with riding properly." Bravo. New riders need to slow down and learn technique. Learning to combine all the techniques is key. Smooth and speed will follow.

Best of Luck!
 
MSF Coach here as well. As stated above, in a single turn "Outside Inside Outside" that we teach in class works well. Staying to the outside allows the rider to see through the turn before entry. Drifting to the outside on exit minimizes the lean required, "straightening" the curve. Seeing through the turn is especially important here in California canyons, where being able to see the whole turn is the exception, rather than the rule.

On multiple back to back turns it's more like "Outside, inside, inside" for two reasons:

[Draw out a sincle "C" curve and a "S" curve on paper to to get the most out of what is comming next]

First, and perhaps most important, staying to the inside of the first turn leaves you on the outside for the second turn. This is much perfered to using OIO, which would leave you on the inside of the next curve pointing about as straight as could be. Talk about a pucker-factor moment!

Second, adjusting your speed to allow for staying on the inside of a turn gives a little more wiggle room for the unexpected. It's a hell of a lot easier to ease up on a lean angle to avoid an obstacle than to have to lean even further.

On that note, many riders of all experience levels get "lock arm" when confronted with the unexpected, causing the bike to run wide. I think everyone has been through it. The difference is the experienced riders have learned to supress this instinct enough to make it through the situation.

A note on entry speed: It is much more pleasant to enter into a turn at a speed "too slow" and realize you need to add more throttle mid-turn than to come in hot and fight the above instinctual reaction.

I have saved the most important point for last. You need to look where you want the bike to go. I'm not going to get into the why and how of it, but when you put a human in motion, especially on two wheels, more often than not they will go where they look.

It in engrained in the Human psyche to look at the threat. Think of a dog chasing you, a gun aimed at you, or the blue lights of a cop car. All of the above will produce a "fight or flight" response, but the initial reaction (at least for the first bit of time) is to look at the threat. If the threat is getting closer, the instinct is even stronger. That dog is getting CLOSER!!!

One comon threat in motorcycling is to run wide in a turn. The human instinct is to look at the outside of the turn, whether it is a guard rail or a gravel shoulder. As a motorcycle rider feels themselves running wide, the perceived threat (the side of the road) is getting closer. Every cell of their being wants to look there, but one has to look to where they want to go to give the bike the best chance of making it.

Another way to eliminate the Fight or Flight response is to reduce the surprise factor. This can be done by identfying threats as soon as possible, extending the amount of time the brain has to process the information.

When my wife and I were dating she wanted to learn to ride. Like most drivers, she tended to limit her vision to the car in front of her. I started asking her if she saw a rock, a bump in the road, the truck two cars ahead of her with a loose tarp and whatever else I could to get her to plan ahead. In the mountains I made her look for the center double yellow lines, as far as she could see (combining the look where you want to go with planning ahead). We would call out little things to trump one another. We made it into a game. Her car driving improved quite a bit, and it prepared her for motorcycle riding later.


THE ABOVE WAS FOR STREET RIDING. At the track, it's much easier. The same principle applies, but going around in circles with corner workers to warn you of danger allows many lines to be tried, over and over. I tend to start with "street lines" and then work to adapt to track conditions (bumps, wind, etc.). I like to follow faster riders and see what they're doing different. Speed comes from being smooth and planning ahead.

Another difference between the street and track is braking. When I'm on the street I tend to use the MSF condoned method of Slow Look Lean Roll. I try to stay at a speed that eliminates the need for braking in turns.

[A side note here, the Roll can/should be simultanious with Lean, but the bike resists turning in under throttle and the SLLR method was adopted to help begining riders, the target MSF audience. Also, we wanted to get the brake lever out of begining rider's hands (the Fight or Flight tensing may include hand clenching)]

On the track you have many of the possible dangers eliminated. This allows braking into the corner up to the apex if needed, but it's beyond the scope of of the BRC and I don't advise that for street riding.
So for the "S" curves, Outside Inside, Inside.Look where you want to goPlan ahead as much as possibleTrack riding is a completely different animal than street.Anyway, my 2 cents... Sorry for the long rant but I love riding!

Sean
 
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