RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian

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You're making that up too. The original charge was not "violent rape", at all. And the "evidence" that was received was the woman's own testimony that formed the basis of the complaint that went to the court. You're just trying to fit the facts into your habitual anti-Israel narrative.
I would like to know what you are basing this claim on. I have read several articles that say the original charge was "violent rape", so if this is wrong I don't think that any poster here is guilty of making that up.

According to Haaretz, he was charged with rape and indecent assault. I am unclear on the details of the definition of indecent assault, but to call it "violent rape" smacks of a certain editorializing. This is indeed how many articles are characterizing it.
 
I think the suspicion is that if had been Jewish and married, he would not have been arrested for a philandering one night stand while if he had been Palestinian and single he would have been.
Partially true. If he was Palestinian and single, the woman may or may not have sued, depending on what exactly pissed her off. If he was Jewish and married-Same thing. But, if she would not have slept with him if he was married and Jewish and she did sue him, he would have gotten convicted too. If he was Palestinian and unmarried, and she sued him, he would once again be convicted. If he claimed he was a giant-squid hunter, and the woman had earlier made a pledge to never sleep with anyone who has not killed at least 5 giant squid, he could very well be convicted again. (Or she would go to a mental assylum).

Its tough to prove either way but in this case, judging just from teh stuf that we know so far, it smells fishy.

That's exactly the issue: the case is "fishy" if you assume that the court etc. are all acting on racist motives, and "not fishy" if you don't make that assumption.

In short, it acts somewhat as a Rorschach inkblot test - one sees in it what one is predisposed to see in it. Once the actual facts are known, it cannot be said that it is, in point of logic, "racist" in and of itself (though of course the judge etc. may well be racist).
 
This article (pdf) is pertinent.
Fraud, along with force and coercion, is one of the three principal
means by which a person can commit rape.12 Obtaining intercourse through
fraud, just as through force and coercion, constitutes rape because it vitiates
the consent of the victim.13 ... rape by fraud triggers the issue of whether a
victim’s fraudulently induced consent to intercourse is legally effective con-
sent. As Stephen Schulhofer predicts, “the next generation of issues [in
rape law] will center on when or whether ‘yes’ . . . mean ‘yes.’”16
The two most prevalent types of rape by fraud transpire in the contexts
of medical treatment fraud and marital relations.17 In the typical fraudulent
medical treatment case, a patient consents to penetration by a medical in-
strument (often for gynecological purposes), but instead receives sexual in-
tercourse.18 In the typical spousal impersonation case, a spouse consents to
intercourse with someone whom s/he believes is his or her spouse (typically
the victim is in the dark and barely awake), but instead receives intercourse
with a non-spouse.19 ... A number of factors have led modern rape law to more widely recog-
nize intercourse obtained by fraud as rape.77 First, due to the sweeping
reconceptualization of rape as a violation of one’s sexual autonomy rather
than a crime of violence, consent (which fraud vitiates) has increasingly
supplanted the element of force as the focal point of rape law.78 Second,
Susan Estrich has influentially called for the same standard of fraud that
applies in criminalizing financial transactions to also apply in rape law.79
... Although the scope of rape-by-fraud liability has broadened somewhat,
the criminal law persists in refusing to recognize some types of fraud used
to obtain intercourse—paradigmatic instances of fraud in the inducement—
as rape.82 Fraud as to the degree of the perpetrator’s affection for, or roman-
tic commitment to, the victim is commonly not treated as rape.83 Obtaining
intercourse by false representations of “I love you,” “I’ll respect you in the
morning,” or “I only want to be with you,” is dismissed as endemic to the
illusions that courtship and romance often foster and as insufficiently seri-
ous to be deemed rape.84 As one author notes, “What is being in love, in
fact, if not harboring certain illusions about love, about oneself, and about
the person with whom one is in love?”85 ... by “alluring make-up or a false moustache,”88 or by false representations that
one drives a Ferrari or owns a mansion on the French Riviera is deemed,
like misleading advertising, as seller’s puffery and too trivial to be classi-
fied as rape.89 As a New York court put it, “t is not criminal conduct for a
male . . . to assure any trusting female that, as in the ancient fairy tale, the
ugly frog is really the handsome prince.”90 For these types of misrepresen-
tations, it seems the criminal law’s posture is that all’s fair in love and
war.91 “Caveat amator!”92
FWIW.
 
Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it's a crime to get sex by lying about who you are. If you say you're a movie star and you're not, if you say you're an astronaut and you're not, if you say you're a millionaire and you're not, if you say you're a certain religion and you're not.

Obviously, since Israeli prisons teem with impostrous movie star millionaire astronauts.
 
You're making that up too. The original charge was not "violent rape", at all. And the "evidence" that was received was the woman's own testimony that formed the basis of the complaint that went to the court. You're just trying to fit the facts into your habitual anti-Israel narrative.
I would like to know what you are basing this claim on. I have read several articles that say the original charge was "violent rape", so if this is wrong I don't think that any poster here is guilty of making that up.

According to Haaretz, he was charged with rape and indecent assault. I am unclear on the details of the definition of indecent assault, but to call it "violent rape" smacks of a certain editorializing. This is indeed how many articles are characterizing it.
I must admit that it did look like an odd charge when I read it, but I did read it in three separate articles. I thought maybe it was a unique Isreali charge.
 
I can't keep up with all the shit in all the pages, but one aspect I think hasn't been addressed is the extent to which Kashur went to 'convince' the woman he was Jewish.

According to this (and I've seen same quoted words in other articles): According to Kashur, he was exiting a grocery store in downtown Jerusalem around midday when a woman in her late 20s began to talk to him. "I would say she set upon me. She was interested in my motorcycle and so we talked. I didn't pretend. I said my name is Dudu because that's how everybody knows me. My wife even calls me that."

Is there anything Kashur did beyond telling her his name to make her be convinced of Jewishness (and henceforth fuck-worthy)?? I've also seen reports where the name Daniel is the basis for her assumption of Jewish fuck-worthiness - is Dudu approximate interpretation and/or translation for Daniel in language of Israel? I honestly have NO idea :confused:

Is it simply the name/nickname that had her so gung-ho for the coitus? Is 'Dudu', or even Daniel, simply not allowed for anyone other than a Jew (in Israel where crime occurred anyways). I ask this ignorantly because I cannot fathom a person being judged by a name only. Anyone? Honestly, there just *has* to be more to this.

Surely Israel's courts need more than that? Any cites/details/explanation about what ~extent Kashur went to to 'prove and demonstrate Jewishness deceptively' to the fucked-over woman? Some regimes have used the yellow 'stars' in the past - are names in that category for defining nationality/religion in Israel? (not meaning as an insult or fateful reference)

If this was asked/answered previously, truly sorry - the usual 'everyone hates Israel' BS admittedly swamped me and had me glossing quickly past lengthy quoted entries that make bulk of thread, it seems. No help in that, ever. :mad:
 
Point is that to prove this offence you'd have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that (a) the person lied about their identity; (b) that this lie was believed; and (c) that 'but for' the lie, sex would not have taken place.

The person isn't getting nicked for being Jewish (or Arab), but for the lies.

It is a totally seperate issue as to whether lying in this manner ought to get folks criminally charged. As I've pointed out, I'm against it, because I think it leads to all sorts of bad unintended consequences.

BUT, once you have admitted that lying about being a rock star or a famous surgeon *should* get you charged, it is difficult to articulate a logical reason why lying about your ethnic identity should not. After all, many people (rightly or wrongly) care about ethnic/religious identity as much as they care about whether the other person has a good job, is famous, etc.

If I, as a married Jew, go to a church social for eligible Christian singles and swear up and down I'm a single Christian - and (unlikely as it seems) get laid from that - it simply isn't all that different from me swearing up and down I'm a famous surgeon. In both cases I'm knowingly lying about something I know the other person cares about, to get their consent.

Maybe women (or men) who care about my ethnic idenity are horribly racist; maybe women (or men) who care about me being a surgeon are unbearably shallow. Nonetheless, they have a perfect right to be racist and shallow when deciding who to have sex with.
You did not exactly understood the point made.

It has to do with the idea that the woman in question would claim rape on the basis of ethnic misrepresentation
 
As of this moment, FinnAgain has used the word 'bigot' seventy one times in this thread, although I may have missed some. As a public service, here is a brief list of synonyms for 'bigot' which will hopefully make his posts a little less tiresome.

  • Chauvinist
  • Sectarian
  • Partisan
  • Racist
  • Prejudiced

Finnagain: Giraffe is absolutely correct when he says that you are an ineffective poster on the subject of Israel. You use the word 'bigot' so often that it loses all meaning. At this stage, I'd be surprised if anyone cared that you'd called them a bigot, just because the charge is levelled with such frequency. At this stage, it's a bit like being called fat by Nicole Richie. Do yourself a favour and put down the battering ram.
 
Actually, since the Israeli woman (almost certainly) has had military training and the Palestinian man (almost certainly) has not, I figure a fairer (or at least more entertaining) solution would be to Thunderdome it.

Um, as a society, we've moved beyond Thunderdome.
 
Guin "rape" means a sex with a lack of meaningful consent. Nothing more and nothing less. That includes sex by force or threat of force, sex with someone who is passed out and unable to consent or object and who may not even remember it occurred, sex with someone who is too young to meaningfully give consent, and in this case, sex in which consent was fraudulently obtained.

They are not all equal but one does not make a mockery of the other.

An intelligent conversation could be had over whether this law is good, well-intended but poorly written, or completely dumb even in concept. BUT neither the law nor its application in this case is racist, or Jim Crow, or apartheid, and portraying it as such reveals more about those who claim it than it does about Israel.
 
I think there's an expectation that the law is a lot more granular than it really is, and that causes confusion. In reality, people do things all the time that are technically prosecutable as one offense or another; they just aren't prosecuted.

So, for instance, Honesty, the reason it can be called fraud to lie to somebody in order to get sex is that, loosely speaking, fraud only means lying to somebody to get something out of them. So why wouldn't it be? The law doesn't say "but not if it's something obvious like 'I've got a huge wang'" or otherwise require that it be particularly egregious. Ordinarily, that kind of discretion is exercised by some combination of the victim, the police, the DA, and the courts. If all of them feel like taking it seriously, there's nothing preventing a perfectly by the book conviction for it, which shocks people because it doesn't match their expectations, only their expectations are naturally based on the practical enforcement of the law, and not the letter. It's the same with rape -- "but that's OBVIOUSLY not rape!" The thing is, rape has a definition, and the things that fit it do fit it.

I don't mean to say that the question "why would this be prosecuted" isn't a good one; just that the question "how is this (crime X)" is generally pretty easy to answer.
 
Yes, as it's been made against Jews who were impersonating various professions to which they did not belong.
It has not been used against Jews for lying about what race they are to get a Palestinian chick in the sack, nor would it ever be.

This guy was not impersonating a doctor or a government agent or anything to trick this chick. He just gave a Jewish name to a girl he picked up at a bar. It's beyond disingenuos to pretend any prosecution would occur if the ethnicities were reversed and you know it. It's pure, undisguised Jim Crow. I'm not surprised you would defend this garbage, though.
 
If you know of someone in the middle east who is friendlier to U.S. interests, feel free to name them.

Turkey, maybe, though it's on the edge of the region.

Or just go ahead and chortle, whatever.

Why do we need them again? It was one thing when we were supporting a nation besieged on all sides by enemies that had the will and (seemed to have the) ability to destroy it. Now it is a dominant regional military power that is oppressing a minority.

I know its not like we're supporting Hussein's Iraq or Noriega's Panama but at least those relationships had the benefit of providing some short term global political gains. I don't really know what purpose Israel serves in our global strategy.

I don't think that this is a necessary precondition for supporting Israel but if you want to defend Israel its going to have to be something better than "its the best we can do in the region"

Perhaps there is more to this story but I would still like to hear about the particulars of the other cases where Jewish men went to jail under this law.
- - - - - -
You are correct that the Israeli judicial system is respectable in most instances but as you point out in the post below, the judicial system is not immune from the societal racism against Palestinians.

On a 1st point...

Before providing name of the Jewish man who was prosecuted based on this law let me just state that most legal experts agree that the purpose of the law was not meant to be used for these cases of minor lies in which there is no indication or a hint of coercion or other type of authoritarian pressure. And this is where a case of a Jewish man Zvi Sliman is perfect for illustration of a true purpose of this law. In 2008 Zvi was convicted for impersonating an official in the housing ministry and promising women help and benefits in exchange for sex. So, one can find this law useful and applicable when deception is used as a vehicle of psychological pressure in a given context.

When one examines the facts of this case and the key lie that this Palestinian man claimed to be Jewish, one cannot construe any reasonable basis for coercion or any other type of pressure that would
 
FinnAgain - I think you've done a great job here, of confirming peoples' shifting suspicions about Israel and many Israeli sympathisers.

I do have to thank you and others of your kind for serving as an object lesson.
Of course, the claim you just made is the very essence of every form of prejudice and absolute groupthink stupidity. "I saw a person from a group who did X, Y and Z, and now I'm generalizing to the group!"

But of course people won't mind, because it's the 'proper' target.
Just like you've all been going bonkers over correct accusations of misbehavior (rather than the misbehavior itself, which you couldn't care less about), as long as that misbehavior directed at the 'right' target.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out what would be said if, for instance, someone looked at Ivan, a blatant anti-Semite, and said "Ah-hah! Now you've shown us what Palestinians and anti-Israeli people are really about." We have people complaining about accusations of anti-Semitism that don't even exist.
But you feel fine (and draw down not one word of challenge from your fellow travelers) for using the same exact logic. As long as it's against the 'right' sort of target.

I couldn't have pointed out the dynamic quite so clearly without such wonderful object lessons.

OR it is possible to call someone an anti-semite without using the word anti-semite.

You invented it and can't back it up. Not only have I never said you're an anti-Semite, but I've never said anything equivalent to it. Ever. Not once. You'd quote it if I had rather than inventing a quote that has nothing to do with anything I've ever said, anywhere, at all.

I'm not going to dig for examples but you have said things sorta liek this:
"You criticize Israel for doing crappy shit but you don't criticize Hamas when they do even worse things, why is that? Is it because Israel is full of Jews?"

No, you are making that up, I've never said anything of the sort. Along with the earlier questions I asked you, ask yourself why it is that you can voice patently untrue things like your claims about me calling you an anti-Semite, which never actually happened... but if I do things like point out that the OP used a deliberately inaccurate and inflammatory claim to draw attention to the thread, that's a grave sin.

Again, ask yourself why that is. I've been savagely nibbled on for pointing out the facts about what people have said. You've been ignored for inventing things about me. If I was (ever so calmly) inventing negative things to ascribe to the anti-Israel crowd, to you think that'd go over any better than when I address the actual, factual, accurate things about the anti-Israel crowd?

I think you were one of the first people to point out that the commando raid on the maru (while stupid for all sorts of reasons) wasn't actually illegal. This changed the direction of the conversation. Every time someone called it illegal someone just reposted your link. If instead of doing that, you had simply ranted about bigotry, noone would have listened to a thing you said.

1. That was GD, this is the Pit. I'm allowed to vent frustration with the non-stop tactics of the board's small coterie of hardcore anti-Israel posters. That some folks have decided to nibble fiercely on my ankles about it doesn't really bother me.

2. No, it didn't really change the direction of the conversation, as people were continually claiming that it was illegal, that it wasn't allowed in international waters, that it was piracy, etc, etc, etc. Which is the point: some who're part of the anti-Israel crowd will reliably traffic in error and fiction if it bolsters their narrative, and most of their fellow travelers won't call out others as long as they too are advancing an anti-Israel narrative (e.g. Jimmy Carter). And that, in fact, they'll swarm angrily if someone does call them out.
 
Obviously, since Israeli prisons teem with impostrous movie star millionaire astronauts.

Well, no, the obvious part would be that lying about your identity to get sex is illegal regardless of what lie you use and no matter who you are.

It has not been used against Jews for lying about what race they are to get a Palestinian chick in the sack, nor would it ever be.

This guy was not impersonating a doctor or a government agent or anything to trick this chick. He just gave a Jewish name to a girl he picked up at a bar. It's beyond disingenuos to pretend any prosecution would occur if the ethnicities were reversed and you know it. It's pure, undisguised Jim Crow. I'm not surprised you would defend this garbage, though.


Dio, shut your face and go try to be less of an idiot, please. I get it, you're a raging anti-Israel bigot and you're willing to lie and imagine whatever the fuck you want as long as it reinforces your bigotry. The law would "never be" enforced if it was a Jew being charged, and we know this because, well, because you're a bigot who hates Israel so you made it up. And it's disingenous to pretend that your bigoted fantasy isn't factual because, well, your bigotry is the really cool kind.
You really are a disgusting bigoted freak though, just because you hate a nationality and not an ethnicity doesn't make it "okay".

Idiot.
 
Damuri:
Of course you call me an anti-Semite. You call half the people who criticize Israel anti-Semite. You may not use the word anti-Semite all the time (or even any of the time) but you are still calling them anti-Semites. This is the nitpicky sort of shit that makes people :rolleyes: at you.

He didn't call you an anti-semite for two reasons: If he did, you (or someone else) would start a self-righteous rant about how "semite" includes Arabs, therefore he can't possibly be anti-semetic.

The other reason is that you don't seem to hate all Jews, just the Jews who want their own country.
 
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