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Damuri Ajashi
Guest
Its tough to prove either way but in this case, judging just from teh stuf that we know so far, it smells fishy.
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Its tough to prove either way but in this case, judging just from teh stuf that we know so far, it smells fishy.
M
Maeglin
Guest
I notice that you totally dodged the substance of my point, which is that the people who try to take me to task can't ever seem to spare a word for any of the dishonesty or blatant prejudice that gets tossed around all the time. It's telling that you don't care about that at all.
How much effort do people have to expend hammering dishonesty and prejudice elsewhere before they get to call you an asshole? Is there some sort of quota? Three vituperative posts against RedFury for every one against you?
Intellectual honesty wants to know.
I didn't know that but, okay, when was it last enforced?
There is a lengthy article (sorry, PDF) on this topic entitled "RAPE BY FRAUD AND RAPE BY COERCION", 64 Brook. L. Rev. 39. Apparently, it is a reasonably major topic.
www.justdetention.org/pdf/Rape by Fraud.pdf
That quote is not proof of racism, no. I don't see, however, how lying to get sex makes one a criminal. If that were the case, just about every man on the planet would be a criminal. So it's not "people" who lie to get sex that's the problem, it's the type of people who are lying that determines the criminality, which is discriminatory.
That isn't even true in the Israeli case, let alone generally. The leading Israeli case involved a Jewish guy who was pretending to be a gov't official to get sex; another, about a Jewish guy pretending to be a famous surgeon to get sex.
This is the first case where the lie is about being Jewish.
Obviously she liked what she saw, and obviously she liked what he said, so much so that she opened her legs to him within minutes of meeting, which exposes her as no paragon of virtue in the first place. .
Is this not perilously close to 'she's a slut, and so can't be raped'?
I agree that it is her right to choose who she sleeps with, and she chose.
The basis of the law (agree with it or not) is that a choice based on a lie isn't a real choice; that concent obtained by fraud is no more "consent" than concent obtained by coercion (see article cited above).
None of which should send someone to jail, especially when we know damned well the penalty would not be the same if the roles were reversed.
I agree that "rape by fraud' is a bad law, subject to abuse. I do not agree that if a Jewish guy pretended to be an Arab to screw an Arab woman, that an Israeli judge would inevitably find him innocent based on this law (particularly if this precedent survives appeal!)
Fact is, there are many things wrong with Israeli society, but their judiciary often rules in ways that would surprise those who automatically assume Israel is evil.
No, sadly, but it should be.
What, women *should* want to sleep with people who are not of their religion or ethnic group?
I wholeheartedly agree (absent the lying about it bit), but I find nothing "aparthied like" about the fact that they generally don't. If it was, the whole damned world is "apatheied like'.
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FinnAgain
Guest
So the OP starts by lying about the basic facts of the issue, this is good.
Then Damuri, after his admission that he's a reflexive anti-Israeli bigot (which is my fault, of course) who has to fight not to simply shoehorn any new information into his "I hate Israel!" narrative, spews:
Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it's a crime to get sex by lying about who you are. If you say you're a movie star and you're not, if you say you're an astronaut and you're not, if you say you're a millionaire and you're not, if you say you're a certain religion and you're not. And, lo and behold, he twists that into "ZOMG! You can't lie about who you are in order to get sex?!?? APARTHEID!!!!"
Sigh.
My, how quickly your morals shift Dio (but we already knew that). Yes, the reference to a "serious romantic relationship" is one that might result in the conception of a child. An "unbearable price" might very well be the birth of a child to someone who a woman wouldn't have consented to bear children with if she'd known his true identity. Of course, I'm sure your sliding moral scale will slip back to some other loopy value later, and you won't be advocating that it's totally cool to lie to women and potentially impregnate them. This is just a 'special' situation.
But for this 'special' situation, lying to a woman to get her into a situation where children might result, and the woman objecting that you used false pretenses to get her into bed is totalllly like Jim Crow. Exactly like Jim Crow, actually. identical.
Yes, as it's been made against Jews who were impersonating various professions to which they did not belong.
Finding out the facts before you bluster on about Jim Crow style racism is hard.
Then Damuri, after his admission that he's a reflexive anti-Israeli bigot (which is my fault, of course) who has to fight not to simply shoehorn any new information into his "I hate Israel!" narrative, spews:
And people still think Carter is an anti-semite for comparing this situation to Apartheid. :boggle:
Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it's a crime to get sex by lying about who you are. If you say you're a movie star and you're not, if you say you're an astronaut and you're not, if you say you're a millionaire and you're not, if you say you're a certain religion and you're not. And, lo and behold, he twists that into "ZOMG! You can't lie about who you are in order to get sex?!?? APARTHEID!!!!"
Sigh.
This judge sounds like the modern Israeli equivalent of a Jim Crow redneck from the 1950's. How typical is that? "Unbearable price?" What was the price? "Serious romantic relationship?" She was a pickup at a bar, is he fucking kidding?
My, how quickly your morals shift Dio (but we already knew that). Yes, the reference to a "serious romantic relationship" is one that might result in the conception of a child. An "unbearable price" might very well be the birth of a child to someone who a woman wouldn't have consented to bear children with if she'd known his true identity. Of course, I'm sure your sliding moral scale will slip back to some other loopy value later, and you won't be advocating that it's totally cool to lie to women and potentially impregnate them. This is just a 'special' situation.
But for this 'special' situation, lying to a woman to get her into a situation where children might result, and the woman objecting that you used false pretenses to get her into bed is totalllly like Jim Crow. Exactly like Jim Crow, actually. identical.
Is there any chance at all that this charge would be made if the "races" were reversed?
Yes, as it's been made against Jews who were impersonating various professions to which they did not belong.
Also, does this "rape by deception" thing apply to Jewish boys who tell girls they have Lamborginis or that they're in the Mossad?
Finding out the facts before you bluster on about Jim Crow style racism is hard.
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FinnAgain
Guest
Boy, is my face red!
Obviously, that would take integrity. It seems you don't have any. Surprising, but ah well, I guess I'd misjudged you.
You don't mind lying and will pretend not to know the difference between a factual claim and a matter of opinion. Good, though, that you'll hide behind your bullshit. You started this shit by calling me insane and then following up with insults, and of course when I point out that you're lying in order to personally insult me, you babble about how, gee whiz, that just shows that any disagreement over anything related to Israel goes the same way. Like the standard liars, you've missed the fact that I can and have disagreed with honest posters about the issues, often, without any problems. Good show though.
Definite extra credit is due to you for adopting the standard trolling pattern though: lie about someone and nest your lie in a whine about how awful it is that they call people out for lying. That way either they point out you're lying, and you hooked 'em, or they don't call you on it and it looks like you're not lying.
Your meta-dishonesty is just dumb. You insult me, make shit up about me, claim that the factual claims you made are merely "opinions", and explicitly stay you're not discussing the substance of my views on Israel... and then claim that my reaction to you somehow has anything to do with you I respond to people who disagree with me on matters that have to do with the substance of my views on Israel.
Now slink back into whatever hole you crawled out of.
By the way, I don't like this law. I think things like lying for sex should be worked out between people, not courts. But if the guy got beat up by the girl's older brother I would have no sympathy for him, just like I would if the races were reversed.
As for my earlier post, sorry; I didn't notice there were already 5 pages.
As for my earlier post, sorry; I didn't notice there were already 5 pages.
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DSeid
Guest
a) I think the young lady may find out about the exaggeration before coitus transpires.
b) In Disney's Aladdin she knew he was not a Prince before they had sex.
But your point is still appreciated: you are asking whether or not the law is a good law or if it ends up potentially criminalizing common behaviors, even if it is intended to include only significant fraudulent ones. And that is a reasonable discussion to have. But it is not one that has any bearing on whether or not the law, its application, or Israeli society at large, is demonstrated to be discriminatory on the basis of this incident. (Please note, I do believe that there is some institutionalized discrimination in Israel, much akin to levels of institutional discrimination that other minority populations are subjected to in other countries, maybe a bit worse than some or even quite a few. This particular case however is not evidence of it.)
Still lying to get your way is not "freedom of speech" - if as a young man I claimed I was Native American in order to get a scholarship that was only available to members of that group, that would be fraud. Why would a similar lie told to get some sex be any less of a fraud? Is education that much more valuable than sex? To a young man?
Yes we accept that many men will attempt fraud for sex, and assume that it usually fails, and we often exempt it as something boys do. But that does not make it any less fraudulent does it?
b) In Disney's Aladdin she knew he was not a Prince before they had sex.
But your point is still appreciated: you are asking whether or not the law is a good law or if it ends up potentially criminalizing common behaviors, even if it is intended to include only significant fraudulent ones. And that is a reasonable discussion to have. But it is not one that has any bearing on whether or not the law, its application, or Israeli society at large, is demonstrated to be discriminatory on the basis of this incident. (Please note, I do believe that there is some institutionalized discrimination in Israel, much akin to levels of institutional discrimination that other minority populations are subjected to in other countries, maybe a bit worse than some or even quite a few. This particular case however is not evidence of it.)
Still lying to get your way is not "freedom of speech" - if as a young man I claimed I was Native American in order to get a scholarship that was only available to members of that group, that would be fraud. Why would a similar lie told to get some sex be any less of a fraud? Is education that much more valuable than sex? To a young man?
Yes we accept that many men will attempt fraud for sex, and assume that it usually fails, and we often exempt it as something boys do. But that does not make it any less fraudulent does it?
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Tom Scud
Guest
BUT, once you have admitted that lying about being a rock star or a famous surgeon *should* get you charged, it is difficult to articulate a logical reason why lying about your ethnic identity should not. After all, many people (rightly or wrongly) care about ethnic/religious identity as much as they care about whether the other person has a good job, is famous, etc.
Per the original link,
While forced sex by deception is an offence under Israeli law, legal experts say it is a charge used sparingly in cases involving protracted deceit and a promise of marriage.
Which (1) means that the law isn't one that is being used in a consistently bigoted manner but (2) also makes this particular application of the law sound quite bigoted.
Swearing up and down that you're a famous surgeon is, in most jurisdictions, a crime in and of itself. Pretending to be somebody for material gain is fraud.
I'm reminded of Brian Jackson, who was fined $300 for pretending to be various Pittsburgh Steelers players. Guess what he was never charged with? Rape.
Are you contending that rape by fraud isn't a crime in America? Because I can assure you, it is in some states. See the (lengthy) article on this very topic I posted upthread.
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Damuri Ajashi
Guest
You guys are all going to HELL for making fun of a mentally ill person. You should be ashamed.
:EEK:
I would like to know what you are basing this claim on. I have read several articles that say the original charge was "violent rape", so if this is wrong I don't think that any poster here is guilty of making that up.You're making that up too. The original charge was not "violent rape", at all. And the "evidence" that was received was the woman's own testimony that formed the basis of the complaint that went to the court. You're just trying to fit the facts into your habitual anti-Israel narrative.
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DSeid
Guest
Dio, one, a Palestinian paper would have covered it. Two, given the attention this case has gotten, the woman would be going to the media now, don't you think? So, yeah, you are full of shit. I might as well be bringing up what I would imagine would happen if a Jew in an Arab country did this to a Muslim woman (other than that the Muslim woman wouldn't bring it up because of what would happen to her); our imaginings and speculations reveal only our extant biases and nothing more. And yours are particularly ugly and presumptuous.
The law should be blind to the alleged law-breaker or victims religion, race, ethnicity, etc. The courts have convicted Jewish Israelis of this crime; to not convict solely because the lie involved a Palestinian lieing religious identity instead of job status (as it had in the past) when he is clearly guilty of the crime as the law is written, would be ugly.
The law should be blind to the alleged law-breaker or victims religion, race, ethnicity, etc. The courts have convicted Jewish Israelis of this crime; to not convict solely because the lie involved a Palestinian lieing religious identity instead of job status (as it had in the past) when he is clearly guilty of the crime as the law is written, would be ugly.
Per the original link,
[blockquote]While forced sex by deception is an offence under Israeli law, legal experts say it is a charge used sparingly in cases involving protracted deceit and a promise of marriage.[/blockquote]
Which (1) means that the law isn't one that is being used in a consistently bigoted manner but (2) also makes this particular application of the law sound quite bigoted.
The quote is simply and provably incorrect, since the leading Israeli case involved a situation where a fellow was claiming he worked for some housing Ministry and had favours to dispense in return for quickies.
No "protracted deceit" and most certainly no "promise of marriage".
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Tom Scud
Guest
The quote is simply and provably incorrect, since the leading Israeli case involved a situation where a fellow was claiming he worked for some housing Ministry and had favours to dispense in return for quickies.
No "protracted deceit" and most certainly no "promise of marriage".
Fair enough. Ignorance fought.
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Guinastasia
Guest
Sorry, no cud, but suddenly I'm in the mood for some popcorn...
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Laudenum
Guest
So the OP starts by lying about the basic facts of the issue, this is good.
How did I lie?
Leaving aside the fact that my OP was written with written in such a way as to force posters to read the article that I linked to prior to responding (the article contains a full, and I think fair account), the fact remains that the only reason that this man is being prosecuted is because he is Palestinian - according to a different account his only 'lie' was calling himself Daniel, thereby implying that he was Jewish.
Nothing in my OP is factually incorrect as far as I can see - the judge's reasoning is clear and ugly.
When did I pretend not to know the difference between factual claims and matters of opinion? You said that I didn't, I think because you believe my saying you post like a lunatic in these types of discussions was obviously not an opinion, but an assertion of fact, but you never really explained why as you seemed to think it was self-evident, and instead spent most of the follow-up post complaining about other people's posts and why you thought they were wrong. It was kind of rambling, and I confess I skimmed most of it.You already pretended not to know the difference between factual claims and matters of opinion, now you're pretending that while you were talking about my views, you weren't actually talking about my opinions (which would be my views) but the facts that were under discussion.
No, I'm right on this one. You are a terrible, ineffective poster when it comes to the topic of Israel. My base accusation was 100% correct, which you have been kind enough to exemplify ten times over with your subsequent posts to this thread.Of course, your base accusation is full of shit too and I don't cast "accusations" or whatever the fuck you were spazing out about due to mere differences of opinion.
I don't expect you to get this, of course -- your lack of self-awareness is a big part of why you are so laughably ineffective. (Another big part is the repetitiveness of your counter-attacks: you've got to mix it up, man! And pace yourself: let the rhetoric build a bit before you finish off with a triumphant accusation of lying or bigotry.)
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jsgoddess
Guest
This should be a lesson to the woman that you should take anything a man says with a grain of salt.
It appears the person who should have learned a lesson was the man who lied to get sex.
I said you post like a lunatic. Is that a factual claim or matter of opinion? Seems to me like the latter, but feel free to explain how it's the former.You don't mind lying and will pretend not to know the difference between a factual claim and a matter of opinion. Good, though, that you'll hide behind your bullshit. You started this shit by calling me insane and then following up with insults, and of course when I point out that you're lying in order to personally insult me, you babble about how, gee whiz, that just shows that any disagreement over anything related to Israel goes the same way. Like the standard liars, you've missed the fact that I can and have disagreed with honest posters about the issues, often, without any problems. Good show though.
I also said that I've seen you post like this before on Israel-related topics. That's obviously a factual claim, although you'll note I didn't say you always posted like this, so the fact that you've managed to have a normal conversation on the topic (at least in your own mind) isn't really relevant to anything.
I'm honestly not sure what your argument is, beyond making my case for me by following your standard pattern of calling me a liar, troll and bigot.
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ivan astikov
Guest
You guys are all going to HELL for making fun of a mentally ill person.
Please don't force me to read Finn Again's blog 24/7!
Anything but that.