A kink the the draw hose, a dirty filter on the seperator, or a air/fuel meter that has not been properly serviced will make huge variances in the AFR sample. The lean AFR in the beginning of your runs as well as the AFR inconsistenty shows signs of these possibilities. This is not a proper representation of you actual AFR, especially considering you have the Auto Tune. Again you could easily verify this by watching the AFR thru the PC-V software and monitoring your fuel trims. In the near future Dynojet will be releasing the new Master Control Center software for dyno tuning centers which will allow us to use dual wideband sensors to write fuel maps for both cylinders at the same time, or if you have the Auto Tune module installed you can use these channels to write your map as well or simply log AFR data in your runs. The new LCD-200 will be available in a couple weeks and this will allow you to view and log all of the PC-V data including the J1850 ECM data. Yes, very awesome. As far as your before and after runs, unless they were done back to back on the same day, with same fuel, at same cyl head temp, etc... I would would not base my conclusions from them as this can easily change the equasion by as much at 10% or more. I really thank you for your feedback on this product and if you have any additional questions just let me know and I would be happy to help out.
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Power Commander 5 and Auto Tune Info
- Thread starter Lucky92
- Start date
anderson3000
New member
Jamie, thanks as usual for your informative answers to all my questions.
Yet another question. Last I heard from you on the issue of timing is that you generally through in a few degrees of advance in on the 96's in a certain RPM/TPS range. Since my base map (for the 103") timing tables are 0's across the board, would you advise any playing with this at all. Maybe 2 to 4 degrees or so advance in 60% and 3000 and above??? Would you just advance the entire table or just specific ranges? What effects would this have on power/efficiency? Cooler/Hotter More/Less Power Higher/Lower MPG
I understand the possibility of detonation and pinging but what is the range of timing adjustment that these engines can safely handle before this becomes an issue...or is there no easy answer for that?
Guys using other tuners swear by the importance of getting the timing just right for each bike and I wanted to hear your thoughts on this subject. Is the stock ECM timing sufficient with the PCV or is timing advance recommended for the optimal tune?
Yet another question. Last I heard from you on the issue of timing is that you generally through in a few degrees of advance in on the 96's in a certain RPM/TPS range. Since my base map (for the 103") timing tables are 0's across the board, would you advise any playing with this at all. Maybe 2 to 4 degrees or so advance in 60% and 3000 and above??? Would you just advance the entire table or just specific ranges? What effects would this have on power/efficiency? Cooler/Hotter More/Less Power Higher/Lower MPG
I understand the possibility of detonation and pinging but what is the range of timing adjustment that these engines can safely handle before this becomes an issue...or is there no easy answer for that?
Guys using other tuners swear by the importance of getting the timing just right for each bike and I wanted to hear your thoughts on this subject. Is the stock ECM timing sufficient with the PCV or is timing advance recommended for the optimal tune?
Jamie would know for sure and I'm just guessing here, but here's my take on it. The O2 sensors will override whatever is written in the base map when in closed-loop mode, and assuming a typical PC base-map the values will likely be so much richer than what the narrow-band sensors can adjust the ECU may throw fault codes. It would stand to reason since the narrow-band sensors can only compensate so much, and if it can't it will throw codes.
However, if you zeroed the values in the base map up to about 60% TP it would probably work but you would be at the mercy of the O2 sensors in the closed-loop part of the map, which is to say it would run at 14.6:1 at all times in this region (except during warm-up). That would negate part of the PC's functionality, which would be to cool things down, but gas mileage would not change as long as you kept inside closed-loop. In any case at WOT the PC would be in total control and the O2 sensors in-line wouldn't change that.
However, if you zeroed the values in the base map up to about 60% TP it would probably work but you would be at the mercy of the O2 sensors in the closed-loop part of the map, which is to say it would run at 14.6:1 at all times in this region (except during warm-up). That would negate part of the PC's functionality, which would be to cool things down, but gas mileage would not change as long as you kept inside closed-loop. In any case at WOT the PC would be in total control and the O2 sensors in-line wouldn't change that.
I look on the harley site and it says torque on the 96 cube is 92.6 at 3500 rpm.
In the graph charts in some of the dyno tests in this post it is not much better than this. the fuel moto chart I pullled up a few posts back has torque at 77 before the upgrade and 97 after. why are the numbers so different, are the harley numbers analysed a different way. which one is right
In the graph charts in some of the dyno tests in this post it is not much better than this. the fuel moto chart I pullled up a few posts back has torque at 77 before the upgrade and 97 after. why are the numbers so different, are the harley numbers analysed a different way. which one is right
Timing is a very important part of the tuning equasion. Depending on the combination most typical 2009 96" setups we are adding 3 to as much as 5 degrees advance thru parts of the cruise range and 3-5 degrees in the upper throttle areas. 08 timing maps are different, and 07 are as well, so on and so on. I have not yet seen a 2009 103" calibration so I am not yet sure of what they are doing with the timing there so I cannot yet give you a recommendation. I would recommend using one of these options: 1) using a dyno with a technican that understands igntion timing and its effects, and knows how to properly perform loaded sweep and step tests. 2) datalog the PC-V channels with a Dynojet LCD-200 display which you will be able to export all of the J1850 data into an excel spreadsheet and make adjustments off of what the timing and knock control is doing.
So, is the autotune worth the extra money? I am kind of new to the technology, and would like my bike to run the best it can. I read that you can switch from programs, such as from an economy program to a performance program. Is this true or is auto tune just to tune your bike to its own individual operating perameters. Thanks for info.
Depends on your configuration and whether you want to "play" with the tune at all. As for configuration...if you can get a perfect match basemap for your year, engine, pipes, and aircleaner then the basemaps Jamie supplies are as close a match as you will ever need and there would be little purpose for the Autotune. If a basemap is not available for your build but one that is close is available, then the Autotune will do the rest as long as the timing is a good match.
As for "playing" with the tune if you're not the plug and play type of guy...autotune will enable you to adjust the AFR's to give you better MPG or more power. As for power, with Jamie's map you will already be pretty much maxed out...some improvement could be made for better MPG. I'm not the plug and play kind of guy and Jamie did not have a perfect match on file for my setup yet...so for me Autotune was definately worth the money.
The PCV does have the capability to switch from two different basemaps on the fly by hooking a simple 2 wire switch into the PCV. You have to supply the switch but it's easy. However, at the current time this option only works without the autotune enabled. If you are running autotune then the switch would turn autotune off and on, not switch between two basemaps. There are options as far as this goes...
ICLICK has chosen to set leaner AFR's in autotune using Jamie's basemap, but he does not accept the trims. Accepting the autotune trims makes permanent adjustments to the basemap. Instead ICLICK allows the autotune to continue making adjustments and if the bike is running too lean and hot he uses the switch to turn autotune off. By turning the autotune off the PCV reverts back to the richer basemap. This allows the bike to cool down.
I have gone a different route...I took Jamie's power map and saved it to my computer...in case I ever want to load it again (advised no matter what you do). Then I let the autotune do it's thing with the power map for a while, accepting all the trims as I went along. That made permanent modifications to my basemap and I saved the modified basemap under a different file name. Then I took Jamie's map and leaned it out quite a bit. Again I allowed autotune to do it's thing, accepted the trims, and saved under another file name. Now I have Jamie's basemap, an autotuned version of his basemap, and a leaned basemap. I load either of the autotuned basemaps for the type of riding I plan to do that day. If I decide I want to use the switch method in the future, then I will load the autotuned power map and reset the autotune for the leaner AFR's I have in my lean basemap. That way when autotune is on it will tune for the leaner AFR's, saving my gas, and when the autotune is switched off it will revert to the richer basemap that I developed from Jamies map. Much similarly to what ICLICK has done.
Without autotune installed (or disabled) you can ask Jamie for both his power map and his leaned map. Hook up a 2 wire switch and switch between these two maps as you see fit.
Have I thoroughly confused anyone yet? I'm sick and my head feels like it's in a fishbowl...so let me know if something doesn't make sense and I'll try again...
As for "playing" with the tune if you're not the plug and play type of guy...autotune will enable you to adjust the AFR's to give you better MPG or more power. As for power, with Jamie's map you will already be pretty much maxed out...some improvement could be made for better MPG. I'm not the plug and play kind of guy and Jamie did not have a perfect match on file for my setup yet...so for me Autotune was definately worth the money.
The PCV does have the capability to switch from two different basemaps on the fly by hooking a simple 2 wire switch into the PCV. You have to supply the switch but it's easy. However, at the current time this option only works without the autotune enabled. If you are running autotune then the switch would turn autotune off and on, not switch between two basemaps. There are options as far as this goes...
ICLICK has chosen to set leaner AFR's in autotune using Jamie's basemap, but he does not accept the trims. Accepting the autotune trims makes permanent adjustments to the basemap. Instead ICLICK allows the autotune to continue making adjustments and if the bike is running too lean and hot he uses the switch to turn autotune off. By turning the autotune off the PCV reverts back to the richer basemap. This allows the bike to cool down.
I have gone a different route...I took Jamie's power map and saved it to my computer...in case I ever want to load it again (advised no matter what you do). Then I let the autotune do it's thing with the power map for a while, accepting all the trims as I went along. That made permanent modifications to my basemap and I saved the modified basemap under a different file name. Then I took Jamie's map and leaned it out quite a bit. Again I allowed autotune to do it's thing, accepted the trims, and saved under another file name. Now I have Jamie's basemap, an autotuned version of his basemap, and a leaned basemap. I load either of the autotuned basemaps for the type of riding I plan to do that day. If I decide I want to use the switch method in the future, then I will load the autotuned power map and reset the autotune for the leaner AFR's I have in my lean basemap. That way when autotune is on it will tune for the leaner AFR's, saving my gas, and when the autotune is switched off it will revert to the richer basemap that I developed from Jamies map. Much similarly to what ICLICK has done.
Without autotune installed (or disabled) you can ask Jamie for both his power map and his leaned map. Hook up a 2 wire switch and switch between these two maps as you see fit.
Have I thoroughly confused anyone yet? I'm sick and my head feels like it's in a fishbowl...so let me know if something doesn't make sense and I'll try again...