Power Commander 5 and Auto Tune Info

K

Krystalblue

New member
I forgot to mention yesterday...The tech was able to get the sniffer up into the stock headpipe without drilling anything. The Jackpot's had plenty of access. The stock headpipe did give him a lot of trouble but he was finally able to get it past the part where the pipes join together and well into the front pipe.
 
the first dyno sheet you had in forum. was that a map from jamie you had 81 hp I recall 90 torque. looks like the torque went up in later dyno's but lost 1 hp. if I had the first map you tried can I lower the fuel ratio into the 13.5 range or do I need the auto tune to do this. I want to change my air cleaner and probably screaming eagle pipes on my 2009 with abs-doesnt leave much room for all the goodies. Any idea what a stock 2009 ultra has for dyno readings on hp torque and fuel ratio. guessing fuel will be around 14.6-7 range.
they want 300 cnd for stage 1 at harley dealer.
 
Not really sure what you are asking...
My first sheet (towards top of thread) had 81/94. This is with a stage 1 103" straight from Harley with nothing but ECM dowload. My most recent runs I did loose 1 HP and increased torque by 3. I think I could have done better if I had made some adjustments and done 1 more run. You can see me AFR's are still just a bit high but it runs so good I didn't want to mess with it any more. Not sure what the stock 96's are running as far as HP/TQ numbers but the AFR's are in the 14.7 range. Jamie can hook you up with whatever you need and you really don't need Autotune unless you're running something he doesn't have a map for like me. If you decide to change out more components later you can always add autotune then.
 
thanks pretty well answered my question- looks like harley stage 1 gives me your very first dyno sheet with an air cleaner and pipes. dont really like the af ratio of the stage 1 at 14.7 and figure thats why this bike seems to run alot hotter than my 03 ever did. the cylinder cut out and heat deflector help but Im sure they only evolved in the development stages at harley to counter act the lean heat condition due to emissions standards. I'll check with harley dealer near Niagara Falls Ny to see if thay are better priced than the 300 bucks they want in Canada. I think they did a power commander and dyno for a guy I used to work with. Ill find out what every thing cost him tomorrow.
your post has had lots of helpfull info and help from other posters.
 
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Yeah...If you look at my sheets I believe I have some room for improvement still. I need to get the AFR's down closer to the red line. But this probably has something to do with me saving the AFR trims from the autotune. Now that I see the AFR line on the dyno I have to wonder if decel in certain areas affected the AFR trims. Next time I take a nice long ride I will pay better attention to the trims and make sure if any negatives occur at 60% TPS and above to zero them out before I accept them.

Regardless of what the WOT dyno sheet below says...the bike has plently more power that is easily felt in the normal everyday riding range. I'm happy with it the way it is.
 
Your TQ/HP numbers look good and the curves are smooth, but your AFR graphs all look too lean. Not sure why, as even the base map run (no AT) looks lean, and I know Jamie tunes richer than this. What's even weirder, if I'm recalling this right, is that your "lean" run (#3) looks richer than the previous two--and that makes no sense. It also shows about the same HP/TQ, and it should be less. Is that the map with 13.5 at 100%?

Those charts are confusing to me, but maybe someone has some explanation. There are a lot of things about dyno tuning that I don't know, so I'm not going to make any comments that might expose that vacuum.



Like I said, the numbers look good to me, and that's the bottom line. It's just the details of the dyno runs that leave me perplexed.
 
I kind of expected the basemap to be off in my case because Jamie had to adapt an '08 103" PC III map to my '09 PCV. That's the main reason I got the autotune up front. As far as the "Lean" map being richer than the rest I believe that is due to my method of accepting trims. Possibly from not paying too good of attention to what trims were made before accepting them. From now on if I see any oddball trims made I will reset that particular trim to zero and accept the rest. Possibly got some strange trims due to decel in the 80-40% range which could have given me some erroneous negative trims. On the "richer" maps I did get on the throttle pretty hard trying to get all the trims set before the dyno and I believe a side effect from that was that it was tuning in decel before I could get all the way off the throttle...and me not paying attention to what trims I was accepting...therefor giving me some negative trims.

I wish I had a way to prove that the way the bike rides is not reflected well in the dyno runs as this thing never...ever studders and has way more pull than it ever did without the mods. I wish the dyno had reflected that. Off the dyno the autotune fine tunes the map and I never have a doubt that the tune is right. What I should have done was a few runs with the fuelmoto basemap and target AFR's with autotune turned on. I missed the boat on that one. That would have shown me the difference between accepting trims and not accepting them.

Maybe I'll go back some other time for a few more runs. I don't think I'll ever get lucky enough to have as close to perfect environmental conditions as I did on those two days though.

Any suggestions or comments Jamie?
 
The first thing I noticed in your runs is that the AFR is very unstable regardless of the map or if the Auto Tune is enabled. Looking at HP vs. AFR it is very apparent to me that either they did not get an accurate sample with their proble or there is an issue with the Air/Fuel meter on their dyno. Plain and simple the bike would have ran terrible if it was actually at a measured AFR of 16:1, myself questioning why would they stay in the throttle under these conditions if the AFR was actually this lean. We know this was not actually the case as the runs are all very smooth. A much better alternative would have been to disable the Auto Tune and put the widedband from the dyno in your headpipe. This takes 10 minutes and is far more accurate than the probe. Another easy way they could have kept things in que is to have the PC-V software open and layered over the dyno software window and they could watch the AFR's for your Auto Tune right there. Other questions that come to mind are cyl head temp? what did they have for makeup air, cooling fans and exhaust extraction. Also note that is usually takes 3-4 runs to get a good stable medium and if we were testing 3 fuel maps I could easily see it taking 20 or more runs and over an hour to keep the conditions under control. In conclusion I would not pay much attention to the AFR in these dyno runs as it is clearly not correct coming from an outside channel especially considering you have the Auto Tune (unless these were the AFR's you demanded LOL) On a good note concerning the conditions of your runs the correction factor was 0.94 which means that it actually over corrected your runs and the actual HP and Tq were 6% more than stated which is not common but you were in excellent conditions. If you had access to the raw data files for your runs I would be happy to re-graph them for you. If you take the correction factor out your #s would be approx 84.8 HP 103 Tq which are very respectable. I would love to have your bike here for a full tune.
 
After posting all of this and trying to think of what could have gone wrong...I do remember seeing a small kink in the rubber tubing coming off the back of the probe. I didn't think anything of it then and when we did get readings I dismissed it as unimportant I guess. But now realize this could probably have influenced the AFR results. I was told by the tech that the hump at the beginning of the runs in the AFR's is due to TBW off idle something or other and is pretty common...??? Can I get rid of that or is it even affecting anything?



Is there any way to utilize the WB O2 sensors from the PCV and get them to show up on the dyno graph? On another note...would the LCD screen available from dynojet allow me to datalog the afr readings and RPM's/TPS as I ride? I would like to know where this thing is at by looking at data off the dyno.



We were not plugged into the bike's data port during the runs as all I was interested in were HP/TQ graphs and AFR's. Hindsight being 20/20 I should have been plugged in so we could have seen the bike's data such as engine temp, etc. How would we be able to plug in to the data port and keep AT in use though? As AT draws it's input from the data port. He was using an infrared heat gun to keep an eye on cylinder temps though I'm not sure what he was seeing. A large fan was directed at the cylinders from the left front side of the bike and exhaust was expelled out an open garage type door immediately behind the dyno machine. I didn't think about doing more runs as we only did 3 runs per map for a total of 9 on this day in addition to the first 3 runs on the stock setup a few weeks before. I did run the bike for about 45 minutes or so while riding down to the shop and 15 minutes after getting there the bike was on the dyno. The bike probably ran for 5 minutes or so before the first pull.



I believe the bike is running and tuning just fine as far as I can tell. And...no...the leanest I had my lean map was 14.5 in cruise and I ended up running that map out incrementally to 13.5, 13.3, and 13.1 at WOT. I really only did this in the WOT range to see the effects it would have versus the AT'd map you guys gave me. Somehow the expected effect backfired and it did better...which is why I believe I may have accepted erroneous trims on your map somehow. What do you think?



The only thing that still bugs me about this is that the origninal run in stock form a few weeks ago was also ran with a correction factor of .94, SAE smoothing of 5, and under almost identical conditions. If you add the HP/TQ to the post PCV runs to be fair I would also have to add it to the base runs. This bothers me because I can feel A LOT more response from the bike and IMO A lot more pull. The bike has really come to life and I just wish I could replicate that on the sheets. I think I just needed more time for the bike to trim at WOT as I can hardly ever get up to 100% throttle on the street without getting in trouble. Would staying in 1st gear and getting up to WOT going down the road allow the AT to tune properly at WOT? or would I just blow something up?



Jamie...I'd love to be able to bring it to you...even though I feel it is probably unnecessary with this system. Hey, it won't be used for about six months while I'm gone if you ever find yourself coming down this way. Just let me know and I'll get you access to it.
 
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