Pokemon season one a case of nostalgia goggles?

IIRC, that was a mistranslation. Satoshi's dreams weren't nearly as big.



Yeah, I remeraber reading somewhere that OLM almost didn't make anymore beyond 52.
 
That's funny, I thought the Earth Badge he actually earned from some other DeM. Which was fighting Team Rocket. I didn't count him earning the Earth Badge out of skill because he didn't fight Giovanni. That and Pikachu later came in and shock all 3 of the Pokemon Giovanni left for Team Rocket, even those that were part Ground type, then he just forced the badge oon him. That and Ash Squirtle and Bulbasaur got slaughter by 2 of the Pokemon.


I like Dawn's character development more. Dawn had a bigger shoe to fill than May, considering that her mother was a top coordinator back in the day. Besides May pulled more flukes than Dawn ever has. I couldn't take May seriously ever since that Contest where she still made it past the appeal round after having Skitty doing nothing but Blizzard as it's appeal, and she made it through.
 
...Seriously? Ash only actually earned 3 badges during Kanto, the rest were just given to him.

Boulder Badge: Sprinkler goes off, dousing Onix, Ash decides the advantage is unfair and thus forfiets, Brock decides he has a true Trainer's spirit and gives him the badge anyway. An understandable cheat considering it was his first badge and there wasn't many other ways Ash was going to beat an Onix this early with a Pikachu, a Pidgeotto, and a Butterfree.

Cascade Badge: This was starting to get good, with Ash getting Misty on the ropes, but then Team Rocket barges in and interrupts the battle. Misty's sisters then decide to forgo the battle and just give him the badge.

Thunder Badge: Ash learns Raichu's weakness and uses it to his advantage. The first badge he wins by skill. Also one of the best battles in the series, which tells you how crappy Kanto's fights were.

Marsh Badge: Ash wins by...Haunter (a Pok
 
Well said Antiyonder. I cant argue with any of that.



I don’t agree with everything you said but I do agree that my points are just opinion.




You sir are made of win. That pretty much sums up my opinion.

All I’m trying to say is that when you objectively review the pros and cons of the season one to the current seasons, the current seasons wins. Its like comparing the NES to the PS3. Some people might enjoy playing the NES more but on a technical standpoint you cant deny that the PS3 is simply the better made product.

Look at things through the eyes of an unbiased critic and my point becomes pretty clear.
 
That's a good point. I forgot about the part where Pikachu shocks the other three Pokemon, even though Rydon is part Ground type, but Pikachu was able to do that a couple times before that. The way you and Duke described it does make it feel like the badge win wasn't legitimate. I was willing to make it legit since he actually battled, as apposed to getting the badge for another reason, but it does feel like a weird way to earn a badge.

Even so, as Duke mentioned, the battles in Kanto were really lousy.



I can see why you would prefer Dawn over May. Even though Dawn's mom was a top coordinator, I don't really feel that they've really mentioned that part of Dawn's personality too much. It feels more like inspired by her mom's victories and she wants to make her own name as a Pokemon Coordinator to me. I really liked Dawn at the beginning of Diamond and Pearl and her team looked like it had a lot of potential too. I started to become more annoyed with her ever since she had Amipom use Double Hit and Shift in that one bad appeal round. She has improved since then, but I still find myself annoyed with her.

I think I know the particular Contest you're talking about with May's Skitty. Is it the one where she has to deal with that kid pretending to be the Phantom or the last Contest she was in before the Grand Festival? I think that luck can play an important role in whether or not a trainer makes it through any round of a Contest though. I honestly thought that Dawn's win against that Gabite was at least partly due to luck since she was losing for like the first three or four minutes of the round and then suddenly, Pachirisu was able to dodge and block attacks much better than before.



I know what you mean. I still enjoy watching the Indigo League and all, but those matches were awful. It was weird how they shortened two matches like that and the way they made Ash lose to Ritchie was just bad. Even though I liked the Johto Silver Conference as well, I agree that the Hoenn League matches were handled much better.



I agree with you. When Charmeleon first didn't listen to Ash, I thought it was kind of weird since Charmander was so loyal and Ash was always a caring trainer for it. It's too bad that it didn't stay a Charmeleon for too long since I think it's one of the coolest second stage starter Pokemon out there. I figured that the reason Charizard disobeyed Ash was because the writers wanted him to struggle since Charizard would make things too easy for him and it showed how much of a rookie trainer he was. Even with that theory, I agree that it's still pretty lame.
 
But the thing is I agreed with Terror on that. Ash didnt win the majority of his badges because of skill, true, but my point is...duh. He was a rookie trainer so it made sense that he wouldnt win most of his battles thru skill and stragety. But he grew as a trainer in the Orange IslanRAB as you saw it with him winning the Winners Cup. But the thing is, that was the extent of his character development. Ash is the same old Ash that he was a decade ago. The gym battles might be better yes, but there not any different and after 10 years have def gotten repetative. Which is natural.

The only flaw in your analogy though is that your not comparing something like an NES to a PS3. A PS3 is competely superior in every aspect and reperesents the technological advances that the next gen consoles have gone through. Poekmon on the other hand repersents the concept of beating a dead horse and milking the hell out of a franchise. By the end of the Orange IslanRAB Pokemon went as far as it could possibly go. Pokemon Advanced got better but only in comparsion to Johto. Its not like Pokemon Advanced turned the franchise into this masterpiece of an anime that needed to be watched and praised. It was still the same story being told over and over again.
Only problem with that right there is that your not looking at this thru unbiased eyes either. Its seems pretty clear that your mind was made up (that the current season is better) long before you started this topic. Not to mention I dont see much of a point in what your saying. When comparing season one to the current seasons, all you really have is better animation, art and fight scenes, which is obvious when theres a 10 year gap between season one and the current season. I dont see where you've proven that season one is just a case of nostalgic goggles as Pokemon as a whole has been nothing but a glorified commercial.
 
I have to disagree here. I didn't really care for the Hoenn League at all. Morrison was a terrible, terrible rival, just shoehorned in there late, and Tyson was the defintion of generic, just Harrison 2.0.

The fights were fine, but to me they can't be good unless there's good buildup. The Silver Conference had the culmination of the series-long Ash and Gary rivalry, and IMO that's the best battle of the entire series right there, because it delivered on that rivalry. And I thought the battle with Harrison was fantastic as well, and actually felt special for some reason. Yes, Charizard was overused in the Silver Conference, but Charizard has always been the ticket to making a battle feel epic in the series.

The Hoenn League's buildup was so poor that even though the battles were technically good I couldn't get into them, because Ash's opponents were so blah. The most important part of a battle in Pokemon is who Ash's opponent is, and if they're interesting. Far more important than seeing how Pokemon throw attacks at each other.

Sinnoh promises to rectify that, though, since the buildup for Ash's rivalry with both Paul and Barry have both been great. Even though I've been dipping in and out of Pokemon the past year or two I'll definitely be tuning in for the Sinnoh League for that reason.



The thing is, though, that Team Rocket had only shown up in like 40 episodes at that point, rather than 600. So when Sinnoh still has Team Rocket popping in (I know they don't interrupt gym battles anymore, but they interrupt everything else) of course it's going to make Sinnoh feel more repetitive, because it's a continuation of that repetition that's been going on for years and years.

And the thing is, yes in later season Ash doesn't take nearly as many shortcuts in his battles now, and while that has its merits, it does cut down on the variety a little.
 
Except that you incorrectly stated that Ash's battle for the Earth Badge was the first time that Team Rocket didn't interupt his Badge quest.

Boulder Badge: Team Rocket was in the city, but they didn't interupt the battle against Brock.

Thunder Badge: No only did Team Rocket not interupt, they actually spend the episode as they put it cheering on the good guys.

Marsh Badge: No Team Rocket getting in the middle of the Gym Match. Though they were in the city.

Volcano Badge: While they do fight Ash and company, they don't interupt the Gym Battle to do so.


So while there was some use of the redundant formula, it wasn't as excessive as the other seasons.




Of course he did win a fight, it was mainly due to the substitute Gym Trainers lacking skill. Gary on the other hand had to fight Giovanni's Pokemon.
 
While my opinion barely matters since I stopped watching in the middle of Johto, I can tell you why I stopped watching...I got tired of Ash Ketchum, and my expectations of what I wanted the series to progress were the complete opposite of what was given to me.

Season 1 was so new and different, and Ash was so funny to watch, but when it got to the Indego League, and I finished my game seven times over, my thoughts were what the new series would be like when they got to Johto, and I dreamed of what I wanted to watch.

I wanted a new protagonist with new stories with new cute pokemon to refuse the pokeball. New villains who were still comedic, just not as retarded. The whole shebang...On Pokemon Gold and Silver you're not playing as Ash, right?

And If anytime you did see Ash in series, he'd be like an older dark cloaked figure who wipes trainers out with a Magikarp, and the newer trainers are like: "OMGWTFBBQSauce who's that?" But you, the viewer, would know and you'll smile as he walks away and dissapears, and the newer trainers would be like "I'll beat you, you hear me! I'll become a Pokemon Master and beat you!"

But I (or should I say we, because I bet I wasn't the only one with daydreams) didn't get that. Instead, series reset, Ash gives away ALL of his Pokemon save Pikachu, Team Rocket follows the exact same plan+Wobbuffet, and any UST that was between Misty and Ash in Kanto and Orange Island? Bye Bye. No awesome matches against gym leaders could help me ignore my frustration of the exact same thing. After the episode when Pikachu takes out that Miltank (Johto Gym Battle), I was done with Pokemon for good.
 
True, but May seemed to grow more from her experiences, whereas Dawn hasn't shown any real signs of that. I mean, her Piplup's never even evolved! Dawn's okay and all, but she's no May, just like May's no Misty. (And by that I mean Misty in her prime, not in Johto when she, like Ash and Brock, became a hollow shell of a character.)



So you'd perfer them in Johto where they had cardboard personalities and only reacted to the episodes' plots?



That's a valid complaint about the anime in general, but it got worse as the show went on. They kept on adding in new locations, new rules, pointless new characters, and messing up the pokemon world as a whole. Which is why I'm in the camp that far perfers the Pokemon Special manga; it does it right.



Ummm, no. I've tried my hardest to look at this show with an unbiased view. I could go into all the examples of bad writing on the current show and how it's not as "better made" as people claim it is, but I won't. All I say is what matters is one simple thing; the first season had a sense of fun that kept me watching, while the other seasons don't have that save for a few episodes. It's a widely shared opinion that I'll gladly conform to; the Pokemon anime lost it's mojo in Johto and it's never got it back.

And claiming that you're somehow not biased...yeah, kinda kills your credibility.



Sigh. I've said this before and I'll say it again: in the long run, battles are UNIMPORTANT. In any medium, they're something to give spice and excitement to the story, but they aren't the absolute focus. The logic you're using: that Pokemon is better now because it has a better focus on battles despite the obvious sacrifice it took with plot and character development, makes no sense to me. If you're honestly into Pokemon for the battles, then I have nothing else to say except that I think you may be missing the point.

And don't try to argue that Pokemon is "a kid's anime" so they're shouldn't be a focus on plot and character development. That's just undermining the intelligence of kiRAB everywhere; and there have been plenty of successful kiRAB shows that do plot and characters waaay better than Pokemon does.



That's a little...odd, but still sounRAB better than the Ash we're getting now.
 
So what you are saying is you wanted a rehash of the same concept...but with a new cast doing the same thing Ash had already done instead of actually seeing them grow.

Honestly, I would have a hard time buying into Ash becoming a supreme badass trainer when the last time I saw him he lost his tournament match because his Charizard refused to listen to him.



I don't think its completely fair to compare May to Dawn when one of them hasn't even competed in her first Grand Festival yet. Besides, if you have been paying attention to the show as opposed to telling us how much Paul sucks every week you'd have seen Dawn's early season losing streak leading her to rethink her strategies and thus improve as a coordinator.

As for that Piplup, did you forget that early Kanto episode where it was stated some Pokemon prefer to remain unevolved?



Dear god no. Johto was awful and nothing out of that season should ever be considered acceptable to watch.



Is that the one where the gym leaders are all merabers of Team Rocket and legendaries are captured and released simply to bring down the evil Elite Four?
 
Personally I feel that the series had a lot more charm in its first iteration.

I'm not saying that the new seasons/games are bad, but the "Wow, this is really cool" factor has worn off.

I'm sure it would be fine for kiRAB today who had never played any of the games, though.
 
Of course. Pokemon is a giant rehash, but if they kept things new-new characters, new adventures-like with the games, People would've kept on. I would've kept watching, I'll tell you what.

And as for the group growing...They're not. I read an interview saying Ash is and will always be 10 years old trying to become a Pokemon Master. Nothing will ever change...It's a damn shame, really.



Timeskip FTW



Thanks. I think so too lol.
 
How is it legit if he didn't fight the actual gym leader? As Takeshi put it (a... couple of times), a gym battle is between a gym leader and a opposing trainer. Not an opposing trainer and the leader's underlings. Sakaki or somebody should've just told him to come back later and do it then.



But, 3/4'ths of the time he didn't even win the battles. Hell, most of those he never even finished them. I fear for the fates of other rookies now breezing through their badges.



But, Sinnou's given Rocket Gang the best episodes. D:
 
Shigeru was a pretty lousy rival. After a while I don't think he was even insulting Satoshi anymore but Satoshi kept running after him like he was angry at him for whatever reason. At least there's some sort of coapable tension between Satoshi and Shinji.

But yeah, Kant
 
I don't watch the show often but I have paid attention to Dawn's losing streak. It was okay development for awhile but soon it became just as annoying as May's constant wins. I mean, she recently lost a contest to Kenny, of all people! Any "improvements" she makes don't seem to help.

And when have I told you how much Paul sucks "every week?" I only say it when he's brought up because it's my honest view on the character; he's a shallow, Sasuke Uchia-esque shonen rival cliche that has yet to completely evolve beyond that. I mean, Paul's been in more than enough episodes yet so far the only progression he's made in his character arc was that whole thing about his brother.

And wait...if I'd been paying attention to the show...you mean you ARE? Boy, do I pity you.



I remeraber that; I just thought it was a convient excuse for the writers to keep Pikachu around. Guess I should have realized that they're doing the same with their new mascot.



Yeah, that's the one. But only half the gym leaders (Surge, Sabrina, Koga, and Giovanni) were in Team Rocket for the first arc and they reformed in the second one. The other half were always good. The entire Kanto Elite Four being villains was a bit ludicrous, I'll admit, though at least Bruno wasn't actually evil.

But other than such changes, it keeps true to the spirit of the games more than the anime ever did.



No, the tension was better between Ash and Gary. It's the "always boasting, never battling" thing Gary sucked at.



Thank you, you just nailed it. Past the first season, the only interest I ever have in the show is when there are new characters to liven it up. I'd even take Paul over Ash, Brock, and Team Rocket; they've gotten that stale.



It's also a damn shame so many people seem to have forgotten about that interview. The director pretty much states that the show turned into something else entirely and now it's just an continuous, never-changing marketting advertisement that people should only watch if they like that sort of thing. I only check in and out of it sometimes and it's always...blah.

Oh, and I gotta say, kudos to Ajax, Antiyonder, and Fool's Gil for giving my side of the arguement good debates. I'm not always sure I can do that right, so...thanks.
 
I'm not a fan of Pokemon as a TV series, so perhaps mine is an outside opinion. I've never played the games either, though I hear they're actually rather well done. The franchise just isn't anything I'm at all nostalgic toward, and I may even harbor some resentment for reasons irrelevant to this thread.

Long ago, I forced myself to sit through as much of the show as possible, figuring I at least ought to give it a chance. I didn't care for it much, but in retrospect, the first season wasn't all that bad. Pokemon just didn't go anywhere from there. Whether or not the actual quality remained about consistent thereafter, the first season at least had the excuse of having to set things up. I'd hold later seasons responsible for not advancing a plot, character development, story formulas, or anything else. The first season was thus, from my own subjective view, the best.

I haven't seen recent seasons, so I can't judge those.

--Romey
 
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