Palestinian state?

I don't see a good reason as to why they deserve a state of their own. They are thugs and using violence to achieve their goals. Even when we are ready to sit down and talk with them if they provide a brief peace they cannot seem to handle it.

Under one condition I would see making a Palestinian state. If Jordan gave up and equal amount of land as Israel would have to in order to create this new state. That way the newly created land is an actual step in creating a peace between Israel and the Arabs as they have finally worked together to create something.
 
SounRAB awfully similiar to the behaviour of the zionist movement and early Israeli leadership... Do you think that the Israelis should have been refused their own state based on the actions of certain political elements as well?
 
First of all the Israelis were given their land, they didn't try to take it away. Secondly they fought with the Palestinians who were angry at the fact that Israel was made using their land. They were not doing it because they wanted more land. Thirdly, no I don't think they would have refused their own state based on the reasons I gave in my last post. They were not thugs who used terrorism to get their land. If they were then they didn't deserve the land either.
 
Well, they did...



I was not only refering to the struggle against the palestinian civilians. I was refering to the assainations of UK ministers and UN mediators carried out by the Stern gang and the bombing of Brittish hotels and slaughter in palestinian refugee camps carried out by Irgun...



They did it to put pressure on the Brittish government and to silence international critisism against the creation of the state of Israel.



They where exactly that. Terrorist activities where one of the largest reason Israel was given the land they have today... So I guess you don`t think Israel deserve their own state either, eh? What should we do with the land then? ;)

A short article concerning the Stern gang and the word "mekhabbel":
http://www.megastories.com/mideast/glossary/stern.htm

An encycklopedia entry about Lehi (also know as the Stern gang):
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Stern gang

Information about another infamous zionistic underground movement, Irgun:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/irguntoc.html

Some information about the whole zionistic movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist

And an article disscusing the connections between the zionistic terrorist organisations and the leadership of Israel:
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0151/vest.php
 
My only real problem with a Palestinian state is that it is compromised by terror and ruled by those who would wish to bring harm to Israel.

The idea of a free democratic peace loving Palestinian state sounRAB great, but it is hard for me to envision one, due in part to the Palestinian leadership as well as many other extremist groups that do not accept Israel's existance.
 
My only real problem with an Israeli state is that it is compromised by terror and ruled by those who would wish to bring harm to Palestine.

The idea of a free democratic peace loving Israeli state sounRAB great, but it is hard for me to envision one, due in part to the Israeli leadership as well as many other extremist groups that do not accept Palestines existance

;)
 
I do not find enough unbiased evidence to indicate that the IDF purposefully targets civilians. If you have such sources please make me aware of them. Without this I come to the conclusion that Israel is not a terrorist state. It is the only true democracy in the immediate vicinity (besides places like Turkey).

Let us not forget that at the beginning and after its founding Israel has been attacked by its foreign neighbors again and again.
 
i do not know if there are any unbiased evidence to indicate anything around. the closest thing i can offer is that cnn reported about a year ago the number of people killed on both sides. there were about 10 times more Palestinian kiled than Israelis.
if any one has a sorce for more curent numbers it would be appreated.
 
The number is not ten times. I know there have been more Palestinians killed than Israelis.

I do not deny such a thing.

We are speaking of the intenitonal killing of the civilians here. Please refer to my earlier post on details of my request for a source.
 
HEre is a page with the deaths since 1993 laid out in a nice little chart

http://www.ariga.com/5763/2002-10-07-dnaor.shtml

The lady is far from unbiased, but she cites her sources and they seem to check out. It shows roughly twice as many palestenians killed since '93 as israelis.

There is a page at http://www.mepc.org/public_asp/resources/3year.asp that only coveres a 3 year period, but makes an interesting comparison to the US.

HEre is a page with data for israeli deaths between 1967 and 1997

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/oslo.html

Here is a page showing palestenian deaths since 2000 and it has some interesting statistics to go with it:

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_killed_fact_sheet.htm

HEre is the latest MIFTAH report:

http://www.miftah.org/report.cfm

There are also someinteresting numbers here:

http://www.palestinecampaign.org/archives.asp?xid=316

Prior to the beginning of the new infatada, it is difficult to come up with good numbers as far as palestenian deaths, as the IDF routinely seizd and destroyed land titles and birth recorRAB, effectivly making hundreRAB of thousanRAB of palestenians un people.

We know that during the attacks on the palestenian neiborghooRAB in Beirut, the red cross estimated there were 30-40 thousand palestenian civilians killed, 100,000 seriosly injured. ANother 3000 were killed at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps. This was ordered by Sharon, and even the Israeli inqust into the attacks found him responsible.

If you just figure the number of Palestenians whose deats Sharon is directly responsible (you can find a brief rundown at this page http://www.isreview.org/issues/17/Ariel_Sharon.shtml) it is pretty easy to see where the 10 times number comes from.

According tot he above pages, 1770 israelis have been killed by terrorists since 1967 (keeping in mind that even the PLO were ust considered terrorists).

By contrast, just looking at the attacks on the palestenian neiborghooRAB (which were in no way involved in the combat operations) and the refuge camps, plus the ones kiled since 2000, we se a minimum of 35,000 palestenian casualties. This doesn;t include other famous massacres by the Israelis like Ramallah and Jennin.

So, do the palesteninas deserve a state? Yes, I say we give them Israel. THe israelis can either learn to deal with it or leave.

Are the palestenians justiied int heir attacks? 100%

Is Sharon a war criminal? Definatly

Is the state of Israel a terrorist state? DepemRAB, was Nazi Germany?

Do I feel sorry for Israeli civilians killed in terrorist attacks? Not any more than the Nazi collaborators who were killed by the underground during WWII. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
 
@ Silentpoet

Well, their policy of assasinating civilian political leaders as well as ex-nazi officers sure prove that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians.
 
Eddie,



Rantsi and Yassin were not political leaders. They were the offical leaders of a terrorist orginization.

I'm not aware of your second reference.

You have shown nothing.
Terrorists obviously purposefully target civilians, they have targeted buses, cafes, shopping malls, and schools. They had no other target than the civilians themselves.

True while Israel's strikes have killed civilians, it was not their intention or target.

Daewoo,

I'll get back to you when I have more time. (Next week are final exams)
 
Perhaps they where both. But regardles how you choose to label them, they where still civillians.



Ah, sorry. That was my bad. I was confusing two seperate things. What I meant was the failed assasination attempt in Lillehammer that resulted in the death of a Marocean waiter.
 
What political leaders?!! Since when does the leader of the terrorist group Hamas become a political leader? Next, you're going to say that Bin Laden is also a political leader. IMO, they are legitimate targets. Paint a bullseye on and have at 'em
:xgood: :xkill:
As far as ex-Nazi officers, are you referring to the Mossad's kidnapping and execution of Adolph Eichmann from Argentina? If so, I say :xgood: :xgood: :xgood:
 
Well, as Hamas is a political organisation, I think that labeling the spiritual leader of Hamas to be a political, or even religous leader would be quite acurate. I do however agree that you might label him a leader of a terrorist organisation as well...



Ah, thank you. I knew I had read about it somewhere. Adolph Eichman it is. And just because you are an ex-nazi (or even current nazi) doesn`t make youo a legitimate target for assasination...
 
I've got a better plan. When we leave Iraq, we should park out tanks and APCs in Israel with the keys in them. That way, the Isrealis can give the Palestinians an ultimatum: "Live in peace or get pushed into the sea."

CowarRAB who send their women and children out to fight their battles.
[
No, he's a smart man with the right idea.

It's only a terrorist state when they allow Palestinians to wander around freely.

That's exactly the way I feel about Palestinian collateral damage. Maybe if the Palestinians didn't harbor and aid groups like Hamas, they wouldn't be suffering alomng with them.
:xkill: :xkill: :xkill:
 
Daewoo,



I do not disagree that there have been far more Palestinians killed than Israelis. But 10 times is absolutely ridiculous.



All of these sources are biased. Especially miftah and the palestine monitor.

When I say sources I mean legitimate, credible, not one sided source for information.



Are you defending the purposeful targeting of children?
If so we will surely take this up in another forum if not a debate tournament.



Most peace seeking people have given up the idea of a one state solution, besides the extremists and terrorists. I would hope that you would do the same.

We as in the US give Palestinians under the leadership of a terrorist land that does not belong to us in any way shape or form unlike when the British gave zionists Israel?

Too bad we don't have minRAB like yours in office. (Thanks God.)

Eddie,



If Rantsi was a civilian than so is Osama.

Rantsi was offically the head of an orginization which promoted violence against Israeli civilians.
Just as Osama promotes and executed violence through his Al Queda orginization against American civilians.

Both assasinations are warranted.
 
I believe the Palestinians have the right to their own land, but not under the regime they are currently under. Outside governments must work with the Palestinian people to oppose the Terrorist elements within the leadership, overthrow it and take control of their own lives.

Drummond
 
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