New chicken stock preservation issue

K

Kunmui

New member
While I would never store chicken stock at room temperature, I have
noticed that homemade chicken stock I put in the fridge lasts a lot
longer if there is a thick fat cap over it. (Once it's ready I pour it
through a strainer into a large bowl, and then ladle it into old
pickle jars.)

What have other people experienced?
 
spamtrap1888 wrote:

I wouldn't know, because I remove the fat and freeze the broth in plastic
storage containers of various sizes within a day or two.
 
On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 08:26:05 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888
wrote:


I've noticed the same thing.

--

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
 
Re: [email protected]

spamtrap1888 wrote:


I don't completely separate fat from stock so there is enough left in the
stock to form a natural fat cap. It preserves extremely well, especially if
the stock has been cooked down to the point of becoming gelatinous when
refrigerated. The concentrated stock is very useful.

But your post does make me wonder what your standard is for determining
whether stock is still good. It is possible for foods to develop toxic
spoilage without having objectionable changes to smell, taste, appearance,
or texture. It's not a good idea to just wait until it smells bad.

MartyB
 
"Nunya Bidnits" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I, too, cook it down to a gelatinous state. It's ultra-concentrated and oh
so tasty! And when you heat it back up it reverts to liquid. I always cool
it in the refrigerator and plan to use it the next day. Simply spoon off
the solidified fat, discard it and go from there.

I don't know about anyone elses' standard but if I'm not going to use it
within a few days I freeze it. Or I'll go ahead and make soup with it and
freeze the soup I don't eat that day or the next.

Jill
 
On Apr 11, 8:31?am, "Nunya Bidnits" wrote:

What toxins that can live in chicken soup can withstand boiling?

I assume you throw out salad greens after three days -- or do you even
eat raw fruits and vegetables? They have been the source of deadly
bacterial outbreaks, most recently raw spinach.
 
Re: 655544cf-ad4b-4cf2-a03c-1ccd1eea6de3@gu8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com

spamtrap1888 wrote:


Toxins are not living organisms. What makes you think toxins are destroyed
by 212F boiling temps? Toxins are not bacteria and even if you are talking
about organisms, boiling is not sterilization. People seem to think that
anything which has been cooked is sterile. It's not. Toxins which cause
"food poisoning" are chmicals which are harmful to humans and are usually
byproducts of living bacteria and mold. Just because you kill the pathogens
does not mean you removed the toxins. Sometimes the pathogens themselves are
harmless.

Foodborne pathogens are not always the same organisms which cause
objectionable changes to taste, smell, texture, and appearance. In many
cases harmful organisms already exist, just not in amounts large enough to
be apparent. Cooking further reduces most of these organisms. However that
should not be confused with sterility, and in addition it should be noted
that near-sterile foods, steamed rice for example, become very likely
environments for microbial growth. Even if the food is sterile, the air
around it is not unless you're in a clean room.

The link to food poisoning is that where enough time has passed for these
obvious organisms associated with normal spoilage to develop, then pathogens
and toxins have also had time to develop. However much of the stuff that
causes food poisoning through various means is tasteless, odorless, and
colorless. So while food with the appearance of spoilage should be discarded
on this basis, you also should discard old food even if it does not appear
"spoiled" to you, because the bad stuff can still exists even if the
harmless stinky stuff has not developed for some reason. Spoilage refers to
normal decomposition, which may or may not include the development of
harmful organisms.


What gives you that idea? You get the usual result from assumption. It's
illogical based on what I wrote which was about food spoilage.

And no, I do not, as long as they are still bright and crisp.


Are we having the same conversation?


Yeah, I know about that. That stuff does not develop in your fridge. Again,
I thought we were talking about food spoilage, not agricultural
contamination. But since you bring up salmonella, yes, heat will kill it and
salmonella is an organism which harms humans directly by opportunistically
colonizing the human body, as opposed to organisms which harm humans with
the toxins they produce. But the fact that you can kill some organisms of
this type does not mean you have destroyed the only mechanism by which
bacteria and molds can cause harm to humans in their food.

See item 3 in this section of a Wiki article on food spoilage:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety#Consumer_tips:_How_to_keep_food_safe
This is germane to the discussion if you might be cooling chicken stock on
the counter before refrigerating, for example.

I encourage you to read up on safe food handling and foodborne pathogens if
you are skeptical of my comments.

http://www.foodsafety.gov/

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Safe_Food_Handling_Fact_Sheets/index.asp

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/foodsafety/pathogens/index.cfm?parent=37

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_spoilage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safety#Consumer_tips:_How_to_keep_food_safe

MartyB
 
On Apr 12, 11:23?am, "Nunya Bidnits" wrote:

If you can't answer the question you're not obliged to try. The
question was "What toxins that can live in chicken soup can withstand
boiling?"


Steamed rice kept at temperature for a long time is indeed very
dangerous, and fried rice is even worse. Any fried rice eater must
steel himself for a bout of vomiting.


But you said " However much of the stuff that
causes food poisoning through various means is tasteless, odorless,
and
colorless."

How do I know that "bright and crisp" = safe? How long did it take
for the food to get to you? Days at room temperature, most likely.


Yes. But you are straining out gnats and swallowing camels. You're
living between the Crips and Bloods, while worrying that a meteor will
strike you.


But it develops in chicken broth in my fridge? What's so special about
chicken broth?


Bacteria grow no matter what their origin.




Nothing in those sheets suggests any significant risk to consuming
reboiled chicken stock, while foods such as cooked rice should be
immediately discarded.
 
On Apr 12, 12:09?pm, "Bob Terwilliger"
wrote:

Another ignoramus heard from. As one counterexample, heating to 74C
will break down the cramps and vomiting inducing enterotoxin produced
by Clostridium perfringens.

http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/themicrobialworld/CperCdiff.html

"To avoid illness caused by this organism, food should be eaten while
still hot or reheated to an internal temperature of greater than or
equal to 165 F (74 C) before serving."
 
In article , [email protected] says...


Read what he wrote below.


He answered it above; you failed to read and comprehend.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Safe_Food_Handling_Fact_Sheets/i...

"Food can transmit disease from person to person as well as serve as a
growth medium for bacteria that can cause food poisoning


"Bacillus cereus Cause of illness: large molecular weight protein
(diarrheal type) or highly heat-stable toxin (emetic type)

Clostridium botulinumCause of Illness: Toxin produced by Clostridium
botulinum

Staphylococcus Cause of Illness: Toxin produced by certain strains of
Staphylococcus aureus



"When bacteria breaks down the food, acids and other waste products are
created in the process. While the bacteria itself may or may not be
harmful, the waste products may be unpleasant to taste or may even be
harmful to one's health"

They tell you exactly what Nunyabidnits did; that the TOXINS (chemicals
produced by bacterial activity) are not susceptible to heat and may damage
health even if the bacteria don't.

Janet
 
spamtrap wrote:




Trying to dig yourself in deeper? You asked, "What TOXINS" can live in
boiled chicken soup. The answer is that toxins are not alive. Try phrasing a
less-ignorant question, fuckhead.




You even failed to comprehend the quote you posted: Heating the food to 165F
kills the ORGANISM. It doesn't destroy the TOXIN. To destroy the toxin,
you'd have to actually disassemble its molecules, and heating to that
relatively-low temperature will not accomplish that. The toxin is not a
living thing. You can't kill it.

Bob
 
Re: fbb01717-7ec8-4f8c-b406-71aab4f8b9ce@x37g2000prb.googlegroups.com

spamtrap1888 wrote:


I thought you could figure that out from what I wrote.

Toxins are not alive. In fact, I thought I said as much.


And that was a true statement. What's the problem?


You don't know that about what is in my fridge.


Wrong.


You really do not understand what happened with the spinach or the mechism
by which it was delivered. If you have water contaminated by cow dung
flowing into your fridge then you can worry. But you want to know about
toxins, not salmonella, or maybe you just want to argue.

Sigh...


Chicken stock is food which is covered by the extensive food safety laws and
body of knowledge. If you don't want to include it that's up to you. I'll
leave it to you to educate yourself as much as you like. I'm done.
 
spamtrap1888 wrote:


I try to equip you with important facts about food safety so I'm an
ignoramus?

It was apparent from your question about toxins that you are ignorant of
some basic principles of food safety. I went to considerable trouble to try
to arm you with the facts and resources you seem to be lacking, and so you
respond by arguing and insulting me.

I have no idea why sometimes people respond so negatively to shared
knowledge. I think you just don't want to throw out old chicken stock and
intend to believe what you want to believe. Obviously I wasted my time.

And if you just want to know how long it's safe to keep chicken stock in the
fridge, rather than asking how long something that isn't alive can live at
212F, you'll find the answer in the links I provided.

Ignoramus indeed.

MartyB
 
On Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:09:19 -0700, "Bob Terwilliger"
wrote:


Bob, I don't understand how the CDC can put on their website:

"Despite its extreme potency, botulinum toxin is easily destroyed.
Heating to an internal temperature of 85?C for at least 5 minutes will
decontaminate affected food or drink."

http://emergency.cdc.gov/agent/Botulism/clinicians/control.asp

Note that they say the TOXIN is destroyed.

Do you have some sort of reference for what you're saying? If I
understand you correctly, you're saying that what the CDC has on their
page is not correct.

Am I misunderstanding you?
 
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