Israel's right to exist v.lotsofreadingwithfacts(long read, no cliffs)

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Really? The whole creation of Hezbollah was for the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon in the 80s. The UN passed a resolution saying that Israel must leave and Lebanon must take full control of it's borders and to disband any militias(Hezbollah). In 2000 Israel left, Lebanon did not take full control of Lebanon and did not disband Hezbollah. Hezbollah killed Israeli soldiers and kidnapped two. Should Israel sit back and do nothing? Who started this conflict?




Again, Israel started to withdraw, tore down settlements and forcebly removed it's settlers and what did they get in return? More bombings. Don't attack somebody and not expect them to retaliate.



We'll just ignore all the terrorists that have blown themselves up in markets and busses. Oh and those kidnapped soldiers too. Lets overlook that.
 
Of course they refused. That's shocking to you???

Get this:

There's two houses. I live in one house, and my greatest foe lives in the other. He hates me for whatever reasons, and I hate him for whatever reasons.

Now because my hatred goes a bit deeper, and I wish my enemy's extermination everyday, I pump up my slurs and attacks on him. Considering I am weaker and out of shape, I shouldn't be doing it in the first place, but I do anyways. One day, my enemy decides to attack and take over my house. He does it fairly quickly, because he is more physically fit.

To somehow solve this conflict and to solve his occupation over my house, he offers me a deal by saying "Listen, since this is my house now, why don't you accept my jurisdiction and control and we can all live peacefully."
___________________________________________

Now this question is for you Epicman, is there ANY incentive or reason for me to accept an offer that will make me live with the person I hate the most??? Or is there incentive for me to take up arms and kill him, everyone he loves and destroy everything he owns?
 
just to point out, israel has a freaking strong defense force. in fact, one might say that if Israel's neighbors fought Israel, Israel would win in 6 days
 
-Starting around the 11th century BCE the first of a series of Jewish kingdoms and states established intermittent rule over the region that lasted more than a millennium.

-Under Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, and (briefly) Sassanian rule, Jewish presence in the region dwindled due to mass expulsions. In particular, the failure of the Bar Kochba Revolt against the Roman Empire in 132 CE resulted in a large-scale expulsion of Jews.

-It was during this time that the Romans gave the name Syria Palaestina to the geographic area, in an attempt to erase Jewish ties to the land.

-In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate handing power over to the UN who decided to divide up the land to calm the violence.

-In 1949, following the cease fire of the Israeli-Arab war, in which Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan and Egypt attacked Israel, large numbers of the Arab population fled the newly-created Jewish State.

-Many historians suggest that the Palestinians fled due to orders from Arab generals.

-Israel offered, in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel the full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions, but many refused.



So, Jews have been in that area for quite a long time. Historically proven without using the Bible. Different powers that control the area througout history seek to erase the Jews from the area. The Romans first come up with the Syria Palaestina name long before any "Palestinians" exist. Throughout history Jews and Arabs have conflicts over the land. The UN decides to divide up the land. Israel is attacked by 5, count them 5, Arab countries at the same time and hold them back. The Jews offer full and equal citizenship to all Arabs within it's borders but are turned down.


Now, can somebody explain to me why Israel doesn't have a right to exist and exactly whose land they "stole"?
 
No, I wouldn't expect you to accept. But I also wouldn't expect you to attack him when he is trying to give you your house back and is leaving. And who's fault is it that he took over your house? His or yours for attacking him?
 
Hezbollah is part of the government of Lebanon. Lebanon couldn't disarm them if they wanted to, they don't have the power. yes, I know Hezbollah was created as a resistance group. I stated that already. But why did Israel occupy southern Lebanon? Oh that's right...constant attacks by Palestinian groups coming from Southern Lebanon.



Part of the Oslo Accord and the Roadmap to Peace was that the Palestinian Authority control terrorist attacks which they did not as the terrorist groups were extensions of the government.



Atrocities against any civilians isn't good. But who brought misery upon themselves? Israel didn't attack Egypt or Jordan to take control of those areas. They were attacked and took over those areas because that's where the attacks were coming from.
 
I understand what you're trying to say, but only revenge comes to mind when your enemy is leaving. I happen to believe the same applies to Palestinians and other Arabs.

Are you trying to say that I should be putting forth the red carpet and throw flowers as my enemy is leaving because he decided to leave me alone? Does his pullback somehow make his occupation of my house better???

Taking land, occupying it for years, and then leave the land somehow expecting that your enemy will understand and love you is a foolish belief on behalf of Israel. And therein lies the problem.

You cannot believe that Arabs will ever love Israel when Israel cannot help itself but consistently control other Arab nations.
 
I don't expect you to be happy and put out a red carpet but I would think you would be smart enough to realize you are getting what you want and to keep quiet for a little while as I leave. Attacking me again only worsens things. Do you not think it would be smarter to let me leave so you can have your home back?



The only reason Israel has these lands is because they were attacked. The attackers lost and Israel took control of the higher grounds that the enemy was using to bombard Israel. Israel didn't just walk in there and said they were taking over. They were forced to take the lands when they were attacked by Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.



What other nations is Israel controlling? I've yet to see Israel enter any lands without being attacked first.

***edit***
PS - Thanks for keeping things civil and having good debating skills.
 
Do you really expect there to be peace when Hamas goal is the complete destruction of Israel? Not to mention Iran also wants the complete destruction of Israel. Peace will never come to the middle east. Period. Even if Israel were destroyed you'd have Sunnis fighting Shiites as you can already see in Iraq. Hell, the only reason Hamas and Hezbollah are on ok terms with each other is because Israel is a bigger enemy to the two of them.

I'm not going to debate the other points as you and I aren't going to see each other points and will just go on in circles forever.
 
they were given 55% in the partition plan. arabs wanted more than the 45%, so they attacked. now they are fighting to get much less than 45%. arabs were stupid and shortsighted.
 
I'm not seeing a date on that article so I'm assuming that is from this week...if so, do you expect Israel to pack up and leave in a week? Shit doesn't happen that quick. Also, can you get me a story from any other credible news agencies? Not saying that isn't a credible news agency but I've never heard of them. You get me a story from the BBC, CNN, El Nacional(Venezuelan paper) and I'll be more apt to believe it.



I don't know how many times I have to say it, Israel started to withdraw it's settlements, forcebly removing it's people, and they still got attacked. YOu can't expect a country to leave an area it has occupied for 30+ years to leave in a day or a week. It takes time.




Victim of circumstance? Getting attacked repeatedly by several nations makes them a victim of circumstance but what the Palestinian people have to go through doesn't make them victims of circumstance?
 
Yes, I do believe letting you leave is the best idea. After all, I'm getting my house back. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what I would do. What matters is what Palestinians would do. And as history has shown us, they do something else. The Arabic world is engulfed in hate and resentment towards Israel that has been escalating for god knows how long.

I would never label Arabs as savage or unrealistic, but they have a very differrent mindset and a different method of solving their problems. Whether they have done justice to themselves is quite another matter.





To Arabs, that's exactly what happened in 1947. See what I'm trying to get at?






Well, since the State of Palestine is still nothing more but words on a piece of paper, I guess suggesting that Israel is controlling Palestine is not valid. Therefore, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights remain as occupied territories.
 
Thats a HUGE gap in time dude, huge. When the WZC started buying up land from the "rich" land owning Arabs/royals of the region (after its expansion out of the Arab penn. the richies kept almost total serfdom control of the regions land) at the turn of the 20th century, is when "modern" day arabs got upset. Sorry your land was originaly taken from you by richer arabs (from the penn.) and then partly sold off to european jews, but hey, thats life.


THEN the Mandate was handed off from Brits to US to UN and the current state of Israel founded.
 
And that right there is my point. Peace could happen in the middle east if Arabs would sit back and think about their actions past one day.





Then they need to read up on the history of Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. The same people that created those borders were the people that created the borders of Israel. The only difference is that the majority of the Arab world are anti-semites.
 
A day or two after the Israeli soldier is kidnapped Hamas comes out with this. It's understandable why Israel hasn't bothered with it. Plus, what are the conditions of the document?



Well, I'll give you credit for actually coming through with links. I don't agree with Israel expanding those settlements. However, I still don't see what blowing somebody up in a market or bus goes towards helping get Israel out.




Again, I've yet to see Israel go into an area that they weren't attacked from.
 
UN Security Council Resolution 425 would disagree with you.

Go ahead, look it up.

Shebaa farms are not even considered Lebanese territory .
 
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