Is there a lack of serious american cartoons?

You juist names all the problems i have with the average 'action anime' horrible animation, bad voice acting (In japanese and English) ugly generic character designs and annoying characters with zero charisma. Really I think that over used red stuff is the only reason why action anime is so popular.

Yes I am an anime fan I just fine 90% of anime to be generic and not that good.
 
What Marinite said. Perhaps I should clarify. I'm talking about animated series. I'm not completely oblivious to serious Western shorts. I remember X-Play once aired an interesting show called Eye Drops that consisted of short computer animated clips. I wish it lasted longer than it did.

I've seen about seven anime shows, so I'll take your word for it.
 
You guys talk about anime like it's a genre. I don't think 7 shows is a good representation of Japan's output unless every single one of those fell under 7 different genres or niches and they all happened to be the ones that set the bar high.

As for the problem of serious animation, it seems at this point the reason comedy cartoons are getting greenlit a lot more frequently than action/serious shows is because they're an easier pitch. Everyone loves to laugh, but how many people (or do we call them kids since marketing assumes animation is mainly kids stuff) are willing to invest in a serialized, intricately woven storyline that may or may not wrap-up depedning on how the network treats them?
 
Japan can have serious animation, because most of it comes from manga and/or they produce anime towards a niche audience. You have to realize that most anime in japan, except for the ones for children, is 80% for niche audience (the japanese otaku): That's why you still see DVDs for R2 versions of anime selling for $40 for only two or three episodes.
 
And I'm not talking about "Total Drama"- I mean more like a show in the mold of 24/NCIS/Lost, only a cartoon.

I'm not sure if the reason major networks haven't experimented with it more is because prime time American audiences just prefer cartoons with stand-alone episodes as opposed to ones with ongoing storylines, or because the irreverent comedy style of adult cartoon has done so well.

The only serious examples I can recall were the mini-series "Invasion America", and when Batman: TAS briefly aired on Fox prime time and wound up getting its butt kicked by 60 Minutes.
 
I'd like that as well, but I think it would be a pretty hard sell. The only primetime animated drama I can even think of is Jonny Quest, and that didn't really take off until it hit CBS and NBC in the Sat. Morning. slot a few years later.
 
I already typed this in an earlier thread, but I think that it's somewhat relevant here:



Add to this, what was already said, that one of the few attempts at a prime-time action/drama series, Batman:TAS, was trounced in the ratings by 60 Minutes. None of the past attempts have been very successful, so the networks are understandably skeptical about trying such a thing again.
 
Unfortunately, action/drama animation has yet to have its Simpsons equivalent.


There have been attempts, sort of, but none have been good enough. The above poster mentioned that BTAS aired in Prime Time, but even BTAS was heavily censored compared to live action adult drama. Imagine if The Simpsons had had the same censorship standards as Spondgebob. Would it have still become the super megahit that turned adult animated comedy into a mainstream thing? Almost certainly not.

Sex and violence sell TV shows (and movies, for that matter). That's just the way it is. Action/Drama cartoons can't have sex and violence, because no one has taken the risk and succeeded with it yet. If that ever happens, tons of me-toos will follow (but who knows if that'll ever happen).
 
Eye Drops aired on TechTV, not on X-Play. X-Play is a video game review show, not a channel. Specifically, X-Play is the show that Comcast purchased TechTV in order to get their hands on.

Anyway, Eye Drops was basically a showcase of computer animated shorts, similar to MTV's Liquid Television (another show that I would love to see return to TV, although I'd settle for a complete series DVD release). All of the shorts that aired on Eye Drops were submitted by artists, which is probably why it didn't last very long. Comcast buying TechTV and canceling all of TechTV's shows shortly afterward didn't help matters either.
 
It's not just networks that are unwilling to make an animated equivalent to 24 or NCIS, it's also creative types. Look at it this way: most of the big-name creators in US adult animated series - Matt and Trey, Mike Judge, Seth MacFarlane - got their starts in independant animation, and their TV work is ultimately an extension of the same stuff they were doing off their own bat as indie animators. How many animated 24s are out there in the independant scene?
 
I agree that the direction of many cartoons these days seems to be more towards a non-serious comedy style rather than the serious drama style. While there have been some serious action cartoons (TSSM, Wolverine and X-men, TMNT 2K3), a lot of the most recent offerings have skewed towards lighthearted romps that focus less on character development and plausible storylines and more on wackiness and humor. Batman: The Brave and the Bold is an excellent example of this - fun that it may be, it's almost uncomparable to B:TAS or even the more serious episodes of the Batman. And Marvel, of course, had to follow with a comedy mash-up of their own, in the form of Superhero Squad (although, from what I've read, it doesn't even compare to the Brave and the Bold quality wise).

I think the general reason for this is becase, by and large, the vast majority of people in America still see cartoons as primarily a comedy genere. When then think of the word "cartoon," they don't think of "animated stories," they think of "wacky and cartoonish." This is backed up by the fact that even the biggest and most sucessful action cartoons have generally paled in notability and sucess when compared to prime-time comedies like the Simpsons and anything by Seth Mcfarlane. Comic book cartoons have by and large always been a niche genere, just as comic books in general are a niche product.



Which is really twisted, IMO, as "mature" content in no way guarentees that a product is actually mature. You can load a movie or TV show with as much explict violence and images as possible, but in the end those things pale in comparison to characters and story. Sadly, much of the mainstream public doesn't seem to really get this. :shrug:
 
For those who've actually bothered to watch more of Clone Wars than the movie and write it off as a bad series, the clone issue has been addressed (in the episode 'The Hidden Enemy'). And the show is a little more sophisticated than most people give it credit for IMHO.

I point to episodes like 'Rookies', 'The Hidden Enemy', 'Trespass', 'Cargo of Doom' (I still can't believe they got away with the Bolla Ropal scene), 'Children of the Force' and even 'The Senate Spy' for your consideration. (And unsurprisingly enough, all but 2 of these are episodes where Ahsoka 'Wesley Crusher' Tano doesn't appear at all)

That said, I think there is a bit of a lack of "serious" American cartoons, if anything because the stereotype/misconception that 'cartoons are just for kids' is still ensconced in the minds of parents and people in general. You've got some movies and shows proving that wrong, but I think it's going to be an uphill battle for at least another generation or two.
 
What really actually vexes me is when you take a series that should be told seriously and just turn it into the comedy .... ARG!

There's been too many cases of that recently =(

My short list off the top of my head:

  • Batman Brave and the Bold
  • Super Hero Squad
  • Teen Titans
Then you see a REALLY GOOD serious animation come out like G.I. Joe: Resolute and nothing comes of it.

I'm really happy we have the Marvel series we have right now, but theres so many series that need some screen time to find an audience without TV Executives buying it for one demographic and crying when it hits another demographic.
 
In the producers' defense, Marvel Super Hero Squad was never meant to be serious. It's a TV show that's based on a line of toys/figurines designed to appeal to little kids. In fact, none of those aforementioned shows were intended to be serious, and they wouldn't have worked if they had been.

And personally, I don't have a problem with a lighter take on a comic book super hero franchise. Where is it written that all super hero shows have to be narrow and serious? I liked The Tick. As long as it's established right off the bat that said series is non-canon, it's OK with me. I mean, I can understand it if you've seen these shows and they're not to your liking, but I don't understand disliking light and comedic shows just because their light and comedic. I don't see why we can't have both.
 
Deadly Force is the only one of those that I've seen (Heart of Ice I have a pretty good idea of, though, because I'm familiar with how B:TAS used Mr. Freeze), but going on that, your assessment is dead-on. Gargoyles is one of my all-time favorite shows ... but I've never been able to stand the fight scenes.
 
Interesting observation. I think it depends on how we define serious. Just because some action cartoons have fantastic elements or aren't setting up clever satire on the latest events doesn't mean they can't be taken seriously.

If you can look past South Park's gross out humor to understand the biting social commentary, why can't you look past the exaggerated aspects of the Batman characters and get into the themes they deal with like anarchy ,morality, death, and the extremes of human nature? Are those subjects irrelevant or not serious enough for us?

If anything, I think both action and comedy cartoons can be on the same level of thematic sophistication.
 
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